Is anyone having as much trouble as I am with the reading? How do you guys find the time!! I have such a busy schedule that I have no time and when I do have time I can't seem to concentrate! If anyone has these issues as well, maybe I will feel a little better. I have been working really hard on reading but I am not very far in The Iliad, which disappoints me.
Yeah Mandie, I'm way behind too. I wish I was caught up so I could comment on more current things, but I just finished chapter 14 of the iliad. However, I can truthfully say that I've learned so much thus far, I've been studying every spare moment and its way worth it. So just know that I feel for you and remember to keep up the good work!
Yeah, I barely finished the Iliad before crashing last night. I know it's definitely pushing me to study harder, faster, and better. I'm just having a complicated time keeping up in World Lit. But I am loving both World History and World Lit! :)
Yeah Mandie I know how you feel with the busy schedule and all. The advice David and Crystal gave are great, and a suggestion I can make is to, if you feel like your brain is about to burst, take 30 minutes and do something for yourself, such as taking a nap or doing something you really like. That sometimes helps me revamp my learning system so I can get back to work and be more able to concentrate. But do be careful and don't let yourself spend any more time than you need to on a break - then you REALLY have a lot to do later :) So good luck!
Today writing workshop was really good, and WH! And this time I took courage and took my notes in Outline form, AND IT WORKED GREAT!, and is easier than I thought it would be (although sometimes its a little tough to keep up with all the great things Dr. Groft is saying:) And I'm really happy today... life is always better with a good attitude:)
Great advice Andrew. Yeah I've found that my brain is about to explode sometimes mainly cause I've been up for so long so I end up taking a nap and feel much better for studying. I've found that sitting upstairs or outside helps too. Hiding in my basement bedroom makes me feel tired faster for some reason..
Andrew, if you go to your dashboard there is a spot that says "edit profile" click on it, then there is a section that says "display name" where you can change your name. Hope that makes sense and helps :)
Well I am reading the odyssey and this is somthing I ran into that cought my eye it says " Blame Zeus, who makes men work hard for their living, and then gives them just what he chooses for each!". It made me wonder if my God is like that too? And of course I believe that my God is a kind God but sometimes it does seem like even if you work your hardest you are never secure and a trial is always there. So why is it like that? I think it is because without the bitter we cannot have the sweet, we need to tried and tested to prove our metal. Anyway it just made me think.
Brooklyn, I want to let you know that those trials we all face are for very specific reasons. They are not only to help us grow stronger and to test us. They are to help us develop our character, to give us opportunities to learn, and to see if we will endure(which is always the hardest part). I have never resented any of the trials I have gone through. At the time I hated it and didn't understand why I had to do those things. But I am learning that god always had a reason, and even if we don't see it immediately, we will understand in the end and be grateful for what happened. And I love the person I have become! So, to anyone and everyone, If you are having a difficult time right now, JUST KEEP GOING. The reward will outweigh any pain and suffering you go through right now, and you will be so much better for it! Odysseus, for example. He was without a home for TWENTY YEARS. He missed his son growing up, and he couldn't even write letters to them! he endured tremendous hardship, and he was tested to his limits. But when he finally returned home, he waasn't bitter that he had been away for so long. He was just grateful to be home! So maybe that was his blessing. He was reunited with his family and was able to live in his own home again. I relate to him a lot, and I have learned not to take things for granted as much, because they could disappear or be taken away in an instant.
It is just as important to learn how to accept and respect leadership as it is to learn how to be the leader. For we not only learn how to be a better leader by the example of other leaders, but we wil never learn the true talents and abilities of others if we do not let them show us.
I agree, Layne. There were a lot of times at Elevation I saw people listening and carrying out the "leaders" ideas. To me, those people are leaders as well. They see what they can do and they do it. They get the opportunity to, quietly, shine through. And I don't know if they thought that anyone noticed, but they did the things that needed to get done anyway. And there were times when for a little while, they would take charge because they knew what they were doing better than anyone, and when they were done, they just let it go. That is the kind of leader I want to be. Less bossy, more inclined to listen to good ideas. :)
Megan, Thanks so much for your insight on trials and hardship you really helped me. I think your advice is priceless I will do my best to Keep Going and learn to improve my self through the trials I go though. Thanks! (:
oh and I had an idea about a Running Partner if you are lds you could ask your young women leader you usually meet once a week anyway you could just go a few minuets early. Anyway just an idea.
I just finished Three Cups of Tea, I have a really great quote found on page 312; "But now I think it is like water. It is important for everything in life" - Jahan. I think it's cool how her first time going to school and learning she doesn't say "oh more homework", she loves it and calls it water. Which I think we should drink everyday.
I wanted to comment on Brooklyn's post about Zeus. I think the reason we have trials in our life, is so we can learn and grow, and increase our faith in God. Sometimes trials come because of choices made before, but later one learns of Gods divine help in our lives.
social leadership is amazing!!! i loved reading three cups of tea, one of my favorite quotes from the book, is said by mother Teresa~ "What we are trying to do may just be a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less because of that missing drop." in this quote it helped me realize that you need to try to make the most of everything you do, because every little thing helps,to make the world a better place. ~Rachel Paul, social leadership.
Yeah Layne, keep it up, I'm not even in you're class but I've copied and pasted both of you're posts to my study guide cause I thought they were great!
Man I'm reading all the posts this week and especially Andrew Blake's and how he's really happy and I'm wondering if everyone else is too? I mean I hope you don't feel bad if you're behind because I am pretty far behind, but the things I have been able to learn have expanded my mind, my thoughts and my ability to communicate immensely. I feel like I've gone through some kind of great awakening, or am entering the Golden Age of Me! And its not even specifically the things I've learned in this class like the dates and facts and such, but the ability to pretty much download information into my head, and accurately spit out and verbalize thoughts that I never knew I really had before. Sometimes I catch myself or my mind wandering through ideas, both realizing and thinking through things that are absolutely astounding to me. Thats partially why I was posting so much last week, but its just incredible to me. Its like I've known all this stuff, but only a trickle was escaping my lips, but now the current of my thoughts has been set free through the paths of communication and expression and I am just learning and realizing so many things. Its unbelievable.
So yeah, my life has been totally amazing for the past week or so. My relationships with friends and family have been strengthened, I feel like more of a peacemaker because I understand arguments and the core point being discussed so they don't stray and become fruitless, and I also have gained more direction in life and now know what I want to do! Its so great, and I'm thankful to God, my family, Dr. Groft and this whole class for it. I hope you too have, are or will experience this same enlightening as well :)
Hey everyone. There is an announcment I need to make. Friday is Dr. Groft's birthday. I'm going to make him a cyber cake, but we need to sing happy birthday to him. And if you're reading this Dr. Groft, THERE NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! MWAHAHAHAHA!
Heroes of History chapter nine. An interesting quote I found was that" Liberty had become license, and chaos begged an end to liberty". What I think this quote means is that the people, much like now, were demanding the freedom to do whatever they wanted even though it was harmful. The ensuing chaos( because none of the laws could be upheld) tried to destroy the liberty because people, tired of anarchy, instituted a dictatorship, much like in the French revolution. So my question is: how does one fight those who believe that freedom is free and it means they can do whatever they want? how does one talk reason to them?
This is a pome I wrote yesterdeay I was in a little bit of a bad mood at the time and just write what I was feeling. The pome is called Where am I the me I used to know, enjoy!
Where am I the me I used to know so well Lost forgotten taken hidden in a shell. What happened to the me what made me fail Something whispers it was a choice that started that ship to sail. What to do, where to go, how to find my way. Whose is that face staring back at me eyes lonely and far away No smile plays on those lonely lips but quiver as they try. One slow tear after the other as if they are too shy Slowly down down they go on rosy cheeks of shame Slowly trying to cool that face of deep regret and pain. How to feel at peace again, how to find a way How to escape the one I see looking at me that way. I want to find that strength again, I want to be free A thought comes to my heart and slowly I react Onto my knees I go but that other me says we have no time for that. No I say to that unknown me I have to do this I need to try I do not care about all that. I open my mouth and say, God I am so sorry I know I have done wrong And disappointed you in this long hard road I have traveled on Please God if you have any mercy left spare me some Help me get back to the Me I used to know back when I was really a someone. Back when I controlled myself and was yours in heart and mind. The End
Well I was looking at our past assignments that I haven't gotten done, and I realized that I had written my free flow but never posted it, so here it is.
Well I’ve always felt that I was meant to be wise, its just something I’ve always thought would be good for me, but also because I know that being wise can benefit so many different people and I could change the world. I really have always felt serious about changing the world yet I haven’t figured out how I am supposed to do it or my role in the play.
I do understand that its important to have roots that go deep and to really know things, but sometimes I just feel like whats the point and I lose sight of my target. But then I pray, or play the piano, help someone or read the scriptures or my patriarchal blessing and I realize why and that it will be worth it. I guess I get caught up in the work all too often, no one said it would be easy.
But if I can emulate the great people that I learn about, and if I can really know my stuff, I will be able to lighten the hearts of everyone I come in contact with. No one is more interesting than a person who really knows what they are talking about and has conviction and reasons and truth; they can take you to a different world. Artists, musicians, authors and the people of the arts are incredible to me and I’m glad I at least have the education enough to appreciate them for it, but thats how I want to be too. Sometimes it seems as if life isn’t long enough to do everything I want to do, and be all I want to be. Right now I feel like I’m in a rut.
Well thats how I started this course, but now looking at me I've changed so much since then, I mean scroll up and look at my post (the longer one) that I wrote today! Such a huge change, its so cool!
On page 131 of Heroes of History in the first full paragraph, it names as the causes of Rome's decay: "from the family as the unit of economic production, moral discipline, and social order, to town and city individuals competing in labor, trade, and finance, and shedding morals in the mechanism of industry (1) and the protective anonymity of the crowd... [and] the growth and concentration of wealth made for and epicurean secularism in the upper classes. Art passed from religious to political subjects and forms (2). Literature dared to preach materialistic atheism, [and also] combined hilarious obscenity with exquisite poetry..." and on page 115 it says: "the Senate took the lead in legislation(3)" Footnote 1). I am not in any way against industry, in fact I rather like having it, but I put this art of the quote in because it shows how easy it is to let morals be governed by the business world instead of by (a) God through means of the family unit as it is supposed to. Footnote 2). I think it is 100% OK to make art depicting political characters or ideas, yet I think right here Will Durant is trying to say that because the Romans changed the subjects of their art from religion to political things, they forgot about their religion and the good influence it was supposed to have on their behavior. Footnote 3). To me, that implies that the power of legislation was moving around and kept changing the political bodies that had control of it. I think yes that power was best placed in the Senate (when the Senate members were moral, represented all the people, and did not try to go beyond their authority given to them by the people) and should not be captured by force or another means by another body unless the change is really for the good (like our Founding Fathers changed the place of that power) I think all this is at least starting to happen now in the United States, and we really must fight for what is right and what will make us better. I like what I think Nathan said in World History today that we must educate ourselves in good principles, and that classes like this are part of that, Go Nathan!
p.s. I apologize for all the confusion parentheses
David Wilcox, Thank you for mentioning me in one of your posts! I hope you'll always have reason to be happy too! Andrew Blake
To finnish my thought in world lit. since I got cut off, about lieing and is it right. I agree with Meg that If I had the choice to lie and save hundreds of lives, or be honest and be responsible for the death of hundreds or even on life, I would much rather lie.
Strategems are not wrong in my point of view when it is a time of crisis and it is for a good cause. No I am not saying that the ends justify the means. For if I was in a war and I was the "good guy", and if I would have the opportunity to destroy a city that has done nothing wrong to try to scare the oposing force, I would not do that even though if i knew that it would cower the enemy. As Dr. Groft said, it is a slippery slope and it is basically a choice between the lesser evils.
For all the LDS students, Nephi slew Laban to get the brass plates so his posterity wouldn't be destroyed, isn't that a choice between the lesser evil and a greater evil?
So who thinks that the subject of lie vs. life is really confusing? There are good points to both sides of the argument. If a lie would save many lives, its alright, or if you tell the truth others will respect that and leave you alone. Something I think we need to take into account is that we live in a world where people are not moral. They may not place a value on human life or keep their word and so do not respect honesty. In this case the best option would be to lie. I know that if it came down to, say the life of my little sister, I would do ANYTHING to save her, lie even, without hesitation. You may not agree with me, but sometimes things are more about survival than anything, and I have learned to be a little more suirvivalistic more then other things some times. WHich brings me to my next point: It all comes down to your own personal descision, influenced by waht your beliefs and morals are. Major descisions like that have to be made in accordance to ones conscience.
Erik asked a good question about making sure he was on top of all the assignments. Here is my response.
Erik,
Most of the assignment are on the syllabus. So look at the syllabus to see what's coming up.
If there is ever a colloquium, of course, the assignment would be to read and outline the reading. Remember, outlining is a combination of summarizing, finding key points, creating questions, sharing comments, etc.... All this stuff goes in your study guide which will be a huge part of your grade.
Every once in a while I give an assignment that is not on the syllabus. These are rare, but when it happens, just take note and make sure you submit it when I am asking for it. It's not that complicated, but it does take some time to sit down and get a handle on everything that is coming up. Please check with your running partner on this and see if you can work it out. If there are still questions, let me know.
I think it's awesome that you guys are being entrepreneurial. And I love your attitude about wanting to manage your time better. I know you can do it.
Tyler and Megan, I don't know how you can say that! It is my firm belief that lying is wrong. That doesn't change according to the circumstances. "The way you do anything is the way do everything..." Either lying is wrong or it isn't. The question then becomes What about the lives of those people? Isn't it wrong to let them die when you can save them? Isn't that the same as killing them yourself? My answer is simple. The blame does not fall to you. You cannot claim responsibility for another person's actions, and someone else brought this about. Another thought is this, if you are willing to compromise your morals here, what if the demand is that you steal something, or kill someone, where does it stop? Well my answer is that it stops before it begins. In the end I believe the command not to lie came from God and if you find yourself in that position all you have to do is the right thing, and if you do God will take care of the rest. If he is ready for those people to come to him then that is the right thing but if it is not against his will that they live then if you do the right thing and trust him then he will not let them die.
Like I said, there are good, convincing points in each argument, and it comes down to what you believe must be done, and at that point I won't judge who is right and who is wrong.
Brooklyn inspired me to add a poem i wrote. It is about that story when christ and another person are walking on the beach. It's not as good as Brooklyn's, but I think it's message is powerful: I walked a beach with the Savior and all along the way, I saw my life pass before my eyes, the good and bad of each day. When we reached the end, I looked back and saw a troubling scene. In places there were one pair of prints, And I asked, "Lord, why weren't you with me? In my hardest trials, when I needed you most, one pair of prints isn't there. You said you'd never leave, but where were you when it was too much to bear?" He smiled lovingly, and replied, "I didn't ever leave. I carried you, and those prints you see, alone, belong to me."
So........I just wanted to share and to tell Brooklyn that she writes BEAUTIFUL poetry:)
did Corrie ten boom get damned for eternity for lying to save the lives of those jews? I would think not. Does she even regret the lies she told? I think not. And do you think murder is better than lying? The situations I consider it okay to lie is when you are protecting others. Or when in time of war when some things must be kept secret
Life vs. lie Wow Jeremy you made this hard but a good hard.
Ok well I have to say that I would not lie. And here are a few reasons why. Lying can change people so much and one leads to the other, till pretty soon they no longer are who they thought they were. I was once asked to lie to a police man and I did not want to and the person that was telling me to got really mad. I ended up walking out of the house when I came back he said to just do whatever I wanted to but that lying would save me a lot of trouble and money. I told the police officer all the truth and did not get into any trouble and I did not have to worry about feeling guilty every time I thought about it or saw a police men. I am glad I told the truth that day I know it was the right thing to do. I do have to say this that in any kind of situation like that just follow the spirit and your better judgment. And if I was prompted to tell the lie I would but only if God as next to me in it. Meg made the point that we do not live in a moral world and that this world may not respect life or honesty. My question is so does that make it ok to not be moral myself. I think not I think in a world with little or no morals what it the time we really need to stand up and be the example and get things moving in the right direction.
What I meant by the world being immoral was that even if we did tell the truth, they would still harm us, because they wouldn't respect honesty. In my experiance, there are times when, through no fault of my own, telling the truth would have resulted in something worse than the little lie. Maybe i'm just too survivalistic. This is a hard one, huh?
Yes Meg I agree completely the more I think about it the more I become confused as to what I think! I really like your poem it dues have a good message. I wish you lived closer and we could hang out, I have a feeling we would have a blast together. Thanks for being you!!
just something that I thought was interesting in the Odyssey was that the actual story of Odysseus getting home was only like 15-20 pages and the rest is about Telemachus and Odysseus planing and plotting against the suitors... (I made a mistake in my last post so I deleted it and did a new one...)
Hey Tyler, I would like to point out that when you referenced the story of Nephi and Laban, you mention that it was "a choice between the lesser evil and a greater evil?" and I think that the way in which you applied that is only partially true. You see, the matter that concerns me isn't the case by case "would you lie to save your little sister" but the choice part of it. In the story of Nephi and Laban it is not Nephi who decides that killing Laban is the right thing, but God. At first when Nephi was prompted to kill Laban he really didn't want to, but the Lord commanded it and so Nephi obeyed. Ultimately then, it was the Lord, in all his wisdom, who made the decision that killing Laban, at that time and for the given reasons, was the right thing to do; a decision in which we have no power or authority to make.
If we were ever faced with a "lie or let your sister die" situation, our loving Father in Heaven would be there to council us on what to do. I'm sure if it was your sister's time to go back to him he would tell you, and then we would have to hope that we had the courage, obedience and faith to act, knowing that doing as God commands will always turn out right. On the other hand you would surely feel prompted to lie if God so commanded it. Did not Abraham understand this completely when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac to him? In complete obedience, faith and great courage did Abraham take Isaac up to the mount, and just before he was about to slay him an Angel of the Lord came and stayed his hand! How incredible! All turned out well.
I know God will not fail us if we strive to follow him unwaveringly in all that we do; even in such petty things as honesty. He has given us commandments because he loves us and wants us to have joy, and as we see he continues to love us by making all things right when we obey him, even when it seems as if they won't be. I submit to you that if you have faith in God, sufficient to know that He will make all things right when you obey Him, it will be so.
Wow, so I just watched the recording on the colloquium for the Odyssey, Serious good discussion guys! I wish I was live so I could participate in that more. When and IF to lie, and when to tell the truth, that can be a complicated argument... I think yes, God commanded us not to lie, "honesty in all our dealings with our fellow men" However, I believe that if it comes to lives being threatened or say slavery, what about that? If I lived back in WWII and was hiding Jews in my home or helping slaves escape and someone came to my home looking for them, I'd be lying as if it were my own life on the line.
Yes it was not Nephi who decided to kill Laban, but think of this. Laban is passed out drunk and completly defensless. Nephi is commanded to slay him. Isn't that murder? Laban probably deserved it but he was defensless. Nephi had the choice to kill a defencless man, or let his posterity dwindle in unbelief and be responsible for the spiritual murder of thousands as opposed to being responsible of the Murder, I shall call it such because of the lack of a better word of one man. I know that sounds wrong, but i can not think of another word to describe it. Can you think of another word describing Nephi killing the defenceless Laban?
Lie vs Life debate. Tyler, Neither you nor I have any way, or right, of knowing anything about Corrie Ten Boom's eternal situation.
You didn’t listen to what David said Tyler. Ultimately the only time it is the “right decision” to break one of the commandments given to us by God, no matter how small and insignificant we may think it, is when we know, not just think but know, that he has commanded us to do so. We cannot see the consequences of our actions in the same way that the Lord does, he’s Omniscient! What is more than that, God has never lied. Not once. But he has brought about death. Think of Noah’s flood, he sent that and it wiped out all life, save what was on Noah’s ark, from off the face of the earth. In Numbers 23:19 it says “God is not a man that he should lie… hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?” In Psalms 101:7 it says “He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.” Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.” It goes on and on. Furthermore we are commanded to become as God, and he does not lie. We are not commanded to be honest at all times except when there was a life in the balance. We are commanded to be honest.
Crystal, If you are depending on your lies to keep those people safe then aren’t you relying on the arm of flesh? In 2 Kings 6:16 Elisha says “Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.” By relying on the Lord and keeping his commandments you would be giving those men, women and children a better chance at living and getting away than if you relied on your own decisions and perceptions and broke God’s commandments. I read a book chronicling the life of a man, called Bother Andrew, that smuggled Bibles into countries behind the iron curtain before it came down. This idea of trusting God and having faith was the philosophy he used to do it. The book is called God’s smuggler and I highly recommend it, let me tell you it was an amazing book. He smuggled hundreds of Bibles through the Iron curtain simply by placing them in his suitcase and praying to God, asking that the guards would not see what the Lord did not want them to see, if we apply the same faith to the things we do whether it be hiding people in a WWII type situation, or telling the truth when we it could get those we love killed, God will be with us and things will go according to HIS plan. I know this is true. I know it.
Hey Descussion is good I am learning a lot from all of you! And David I really liked your post it was well written. I had arownd the same thoughts about Nephi during the class but did not knwo how to say it, so thanks.
Hey guys...so about the religious aspect of lying, here are some verses in the Bible that talk about lying:
"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight" (Prov. 12: 22)
"Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another" (Lev. 19: 11)
"But the fearful,...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Rev. 21: 8)
From these scriptures, it's easy to tell that the Lord does not tolerate lying. It appears that the time to lie is NEVER. Because we are commanded not to lie, we should obey that commandment and make every possible effort to tell the truth. I don't think the question, "When is it okay to lie?" is the right question to ask. If someone asks that, it seems like he is trying to find a loophole in the commandments. In every situation, telling the truth should be #1 on people's lists. However, there are some situations where it seems that lying is the only way; but I believe that such situations are extremely rare. When confronted with a situation like that (to save someone's life, in times of war, etc.) I think the best course of action would be to pray and trust in God, as Jeremy said. I think that each of those situations is different however, and one person's way of solving a certain situation should not be used to justify another person's actions when faced with a similar situation.
One more thought: Jesus Christ made it through life without telling a single lie. We know this because we know he was without sin. So it's definitely possible to always tell the truth.
Tyler. What I said sounded off. I didn't mean I'd be relying completely on lying if I was in a situation such as that. I would have faith in God that he would protect me and the ones I was trying to help. I would be praying with all my might mind heart and strength. Don't misunderstand that, I would be praying so hard I would probably still be going in my sleep. But if a point came where it was the "Lie or let your sister die" situation like David mentioned, I would first try to go as far as I could on faith, but if a point arose where I had to twist a word here or there, I would. I know this sounds now like my faith is not strong or something. It is though. I think one of my weaknesses is I feel that I can rely on myself sometimes when others especially God would be a better decision. The quote "God helps others when they help themselves" is always in my mind so my brain instantly thinks "what can I do to help myself first so that I can get help and guidance from God?" I guess I should pay more attention to those who did put a lot more faith in their God and followed as he said. I think I will get that book and see how I like it. Thanks for the suggestion Tyler. Thanks guys, this discussion I think actually has humbled me some. I probably needed it.
I am loving the Odyssey I have found so much to mark I am learning so much, here are some cool short ones I like. “Honesty is the best police” “Go bail for a cheat, and he’ll cheat you out of you bail!” “Grin and bear it in the land of the living” “I call a man a good-for-nothing fool, who would set up to rival his host…he is docking his own tail.”
Jon val Jon stole bread to feed some starving children he was responsble for. If you knew you would get away and if stealing bread was the only way you could feed the child, as in Jon val Jon's case, what would you do? would you steal something to save that poor starving child, or would you dispair and let the child die? It is simply a case of choosing the lesser evil. If you have a better solution please let me know
NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTATANT!!!!
By The Way, if anyone catches this and they are in my simulation group, could yo please let me know how we can make this presentation together and please e-mail me at tyler@gwynnoffice.com I would really apreciate this.
Wow u guys this has really taken off! I am going to go out on a limb here. Please, what I am about to say is very, VERY sensitive, and I would appreciate it being treated as such.
How many of you ahve been in situations where you would do anything to get out, but you cant? the survival instinct kicks in, and you wont argue with it. From personal experiance, when you are in that kind of a situation, you will do ANYTHING to get out. It's terrifying, that kind of desperation. It's heart breaking when you see the effects of those times etched into the faces and actions of your family. You become stonger though. You become the person yo were meant to be, and there is no other way to do it. But, in those times, you don't really think rationally, and out of a sense of preservation, you may tell a little lie to protect your loved ones from more emotional turmoil and pain. To me, the happiness, safety, and needs of my family are the most important thing. It's times like those when you turn to the Lord.
So, I dont think that i really answered the quotes, but I agree with certain points of davids and almost completely with Crystal's most recent comment. And I relate to Jean val Jean. I know what he felt like and why he did what he did.
well, I finished the odyssey yesterday and it was AWESOME!!! I liked it about one hundred times more then the Iliad!!!
so I was checking out Andrew Grofts other blog (http://andygroft.blogspot.com/) and now I want to go to Europe with Andrew Groft next summer SO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!! the only problem with that is that it is like 5500-6500$ a person and we do not have that.... :D but I can still try!
its that much?! dang, ill never go at the rate im earning money ( which is like nill :) and i also thought that the odessey is better than the illiad. mucho less muerte:) and yea, that is really bad spanish:) who is psyched for sim 1?!! i am! and i know why none of you are blogging............>) sry, i had sugar, and i should probably just erase my post, but that requires pushing the backspace button for like eternity, and i am too lazy to do that, but i am not too lazy to continue this rediculous post, which now includes misssspelet wordz wich ar progrressivly geting wors, until tha ar unintelijabel normal to humnitee iz mee speekin n u cant undrstenasd mei, whch mns ei cn plen euil tings benhisd urt baksd nd u want undarstend nyting am saing >) got to love me on a sugar high. and i just went back to the top of my post and waw did , i get off subject!i mean, i went from the odessy to world domination! (and i just gave away what i had written in code, so my evil plans are useless, and now i am talking to myself so they can hear all my thoughts....gaahh!! stop talking!)
HAHA nice post :D yeah the trip is expensive!!! but I am trying, my entire family wants to go and if this property my grandpa has sells then we will go if not then... next time :/
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ReplyDeleteWow, Great post Brooklyn. Can you post it in the Week of September 20th thread so that others can read it sooner?
ReplyDelete: )
AG
Is anyone having as much trouble as I am with the reading? How do you guys find the time!! I have such a busy schedule that I have no time and when I do have time I can't seem to concentrate! If anyone has these issues as well, maybe I will feel a little better. I have been working really hard on reading but I am not very far in The Iliad, which disappoints me.
ReplyDeleteYeah Mandie, I'm way behind too. I wish I was caught up so I could comment on more current things, but I just finished chapter 14 of the iliad. However, I can truthfully say that I've learned so much thus far, I've been studying every spare moment and its way worth it. So just know that I feel for you and remember to keep up the good work!
ReplyDeleteYeah, I barely finished the Iliad before crashing last night. I know it's definitely pushing me to study harder, faster, and better. I'm just having a complicated time keeping up in World Lit. But I am loving both World History and World Lit! :)
ReplyDeleteYeah Mandie I know how you feel with the busy schedule and all. The advice David and Crystal gave are great, and a suggestion I can make is to, if you feel like your brain is about to burst, take 30 minutes and do something for yourself, such as taking a nap or doing something you really like. That sometimes helps me revamp my learning system so I can get back to work and be more able to concentrate. But do be careful and don't let yourself spend any more time than you need to on a break - then you REALLY have a lot to do later :)
ReplyDeleteSo good luck!
Today writing workshop was really good, and WH! And this time I took courage and took my notes in Outline form, AND IT WORKED GREAT!, and is easier than I thought it would be (although sometimes its a little tough to keep up with all the great things Dr. Groft is saying:)
ReplyDeleteAnd I'm really happy today... life is always better with a good attitude:)
(That was me in the last two comments: Andrew Blake)
ReplyDeleteIs there any way to put my last name on the profile???
Great advice Andrew. Yeah I've found that my brain is about to explode sometimes mainly cause I've been up for so long so I end up taking a nap and feel much better for studying. I've found that sitting upstairs or outside helps too. Hiding in my basement bedroom makes me feel tired faster for some reason..
ReplyDeleteAndrew, if you go to your dashboard there is a spot that says "edit profile" click on it, then there is a section that says "display name" where you can change your name. Hope that makes sense and helps :)
Well I am reading the odyssey and this is somthing I ran into that cought my eye it says " Blame Zeus, who makes men work hard for their living, and then gives them just what he chooses for each!". It made me wonder if my God is like that too? And of course I believe that my God is a kind God but sometimes it does seem like even if you work your hardest you are never secure and a trial is always there. So why is it like that? I think it is because without the bitter we cannot have the sweet, we need to tried and tested to prove our metal. Anyway it just made me think.
ReplyDeleteBrooklyn,
ReplyDeleteI want to let you know that those trials we all face are for very specific reasons. They are not only to help us grow stronger and to test us. They are to help us develop our character, to give us opportunities to learn, and to see if we will endure(which is always the hardest part). I have never resented any of the trials I have gone through. At the time I hated it and didn't understand why I had to do those things. But I am learning that god always had a reason, and even if we don't see it immediately, we will understand in the end and be grateful for what happened. And I love the person I have become! So, to anyone and everyone, If you are having a difficult time right now, JUST KEEP GOING. The reward will outweigh any pain and suffering you go through right now, and you will be so much better for it!
Odysseus, for example. He was without a home for TWENTY YEARS. He missed his son growing up, and he couldn't even write letters to them! he endured tremendous hardship, and he was tested to his limits. But when he finally returned home, he waasn't bitter that he had been away for so long. He was just grateful to be home!
So maybe that was his blessing. He was reunited with his family and was able to live in his own home again. I relate to him a lot, and I have learned not to take things for granted as much, because they could disappear or be taken away in an instant.
Meg the Conqueror and Sage :)
Social Leaderhip
ReplyDeleteSo is anyone else having a hard time finding a running partner?
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ReplyDeleteIt is just as important to learn how to accept and respect leadership as it is to learn how to be the leader. For we not only learn how to be a better leader by the example of other leaders, but we wil never learn the true talents and abilities of others if we do not let them show us.
ReplyDelete-Layne Wixom, Social Leadership.
I agree, Layne. There were a lot of times at Elevation I saw people listening and carrying out the "leaders" ideas. To me, those people are leaders as well. They see what they can do and they do it. They get the opportunity to, quietly, shine through. And I don't know if they thought that anyone noticed, but they did the things that needed to get done anyway.
ReplyDeleteAnd there were times when for a little while, they would take charge because they knew what they were doing better than anyone, and when they were done, they just let it go. That is the kind of leader I want to be. Less bossy, more inclined to listen to good ideas. :)
Megan,
ReplyDeleteThanks so much for your insight on trials and hardship you really helped me. I think your advice is priceless I will do my best to Keep Going and learn to improve my self through the trials I go though. Thanks! (:
oh and I had an idea about a Running Partner if you are lds you could ask your young women leader you usually meet once a week anyway you could just go a few minuets early. Anyway just an idea.
ReplyDeleteI just finished Three Cups of Tea, I have a really great quote found on page 312; "But now I think it is like water. It is important for everything in life" - Jahan. I think it's cool how her first time going to school and learning she doesn't say "oh more homework", she loves it and calls it water. Which I think we should drink everyday.
ReplyDeleteI wanted to comment on Brooklyn's post about Zeus. I think the reason we have trials in our life, is so we can learn and grow, and increase our faith in God. Sometimes trials come because of choices made before, but later one learns of Gods divine help in our lives.
ReplyDeletesocial leadership is amazing!!! i loved reading three cups of tea, one of my favorite quotes from the book, is said by mother Teresa~ "What we are trying to do may just be a drop in the ocean, but the ocean would be less because of that missing drop." in this quote it helped me realize that you need to try to make the most of everything you do, because every little thing helps,to make the world a better place.
ReplyDelete~Rachel Paul, social leadership.
Layne, that is sooo true! you have truly inspired me.i really need to respect leaders, and learn more about them, before i judge.
ReplyDeletesocial leadership
Yeah Layne, keep it up, I'm not even in you're class but I've copied and pasted both of you're posts to my study guide cause I thought they were great!
ReplyDeleteMan I'm reading all the posts this week and especially Andrew Blake's and how he's really happy and I'm wondering if everyone else is too? I mean I hope you don't feel bad if you're behind because I am pretty far behind, but the things I have been able to learn have expanded my mind, my thoughts and my ability to communicate immensely. I feel like I've gone through some kind of great awakening, or am entering the Golden Age of Me! And its not even specifically the things I've learned in this class like the dates and facts and such, but the ability to pretty much download information into my head, and accurately spit out and verbalize thoughts that I never knew I really had before. Sometimes I catch myself or my mind wandering through ideas, both realizing and thinking through things that are absolutely astounding to me. Thats partially why I was posting so much last week, but its just incredible to me. Its like I've known all this stuff, but only a trickle was escaping my lips, but now the current of my thoughts has been set free through the paths of communication and expression and I am just learning and realizing so many things. Its unbelievable.
So yeah, my life has been totally amazing for the past week or so. My relationships with friends and family have been strengthened, I feel like more of a peacemaker because I understand arguments and the core point being discussed so they don't stray and become fruitless, and I also have gained more direction in life and now know what I want to do! Its so great, and I'm thankful to God, my family, Dr. Groft and this whole class for it. I hope you too have, are or will experience this same enlightening as well :)
Hey everyone.
ReplyDeleteThere is an announcment I need to make. Friday is Dr. Groft's birthday. I'm going to make him a cyber cake, but we need to sing happy birthday to him. And if you're reading this Dr. Groft, THERE NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT IT! MWAHAHAHAHA!
Heroes of History chapter nine.
An interesting quote I found was that" Liberty had become license, and chaos begged an end to liberty". What I think this quote means is that the people, much like now, were demanding the freedom to do whatever they wanted even though it was harmful. The ensuing chaos( because none of the laws could be upheld) tried to destroy the liberty because people, tired of anarchy, instituted a dictatorship, much like in the French revolution.
So my question is: how does one fight those who believe that freedom is free and it means they can do whatever they want? how does one talk reason to them?
Thank everyone for helping me!! I am getting caught up as we speak!! Well, type I guess... :) Anyways thank a lot and keep up the good work!!
ReplyDeleteThis is a pome I wrote yesterdeay I was in a little bit of a bad mood at the time and just write what I was feeling. The pome is called Where am I the me I used to know, enjoy!
ReplyDeleteWhere am I the me I used to know so well
Lost forgotten taken hidden in a shell.
What happened to the me what made me fail
Something whispers it was a choice that started that ship to sail.
What to do, where to go, how to find my way.
Whose is that face staring back at me eyes lonely and far away
No smile plays on those lonely lips but quiver as they try.
One slow tear after the other as if they are too shy
Slowly down down they go on rosy cheeks of shame
Slowly trying to cool that face of deep regret and pain.
How to feel at peace again, how to find a way
How to escape the one I see looking at me that way.
I want to find that strength again, I want to be free
A thought comes to my heart and slowly I react
Onto my knees I go but that other me says we have no time for that.
No I say to that unknown me I have to do this I need to try I do not care about all that.
I open my mouth and say, God I am so sorry I know I have done wrong
And disappointed you in this long hard road I have traveled on
Please God if you have any mercy left spare me some
Help me get back to the Me I used to know back when I was really a someone.
Back when I controlled myself and was yours in heart and mind.
The End
Wow, thats beautiful Brooklyn. I think we all feel that way every once in a while.
ReplyDeleteWell I was looking at our past assignments that I haven't gotten done, and I realized that I had written my free flow but never posted it, so here it is.
ReplyDeleteWell I’ve always felt that I was meant to be wise, its just something I’ve always thought would be good for me, but also because I know that being wise can benefit so many different people and I could change the world. I really have always felt serious about changing the world yet I haven’t figured out how I am supposed to do it or my role in the play.
I do understand that its important to have roots that go deep and to really know things, but sometimes I just feel like whats the point and I lose sight of my target. But then I pray, or play the piano, help someone or read the scriptures or my patriarchal blessing and I realize why and that it will be worth it. I guess I get caught up in the work all too often, no one said it would be easy.
But if I can emulate the great people that I learn about, and if I can really know my stuff, I will be able to lighten the hearts of everyone I come in contact with. No one is more interesting than a person who really knows what they are talking about and has conviction and reasons and truth; they can take you to a different world. Artists, musicians, authors and the people of the arts are incredible to me and I’m glad I at least have the education enough to appreciate them for it, but thats how I want to be too. Sometimes it seems as if life isn’t long enough to do everything I want to do, and be all I want to be. Right now I feel like I’m in a rut.
Well thats how I started this course, but now looking at me I've changed so much since then, I mean scroll up and look at my post (the longer one) that I wrote today! Such a huge change, its so cool!
Thank you Crystal for all of what you said!
ReplyDeleteOn page 131 of Heroes of History in the first full paragraph, it names as the causes of Rome's decay: "from the family as the unit of economic production, moral discipline, and social order, to town and city individuals competing in labor, trade, and finance, and shedding morals in the mechanism of industry (1) and the protective anonymity of the crowd... [and] the growth and concentration of wealth made for and epicurean secularism in the upper classes. Art passed from religious to political subjects and forms (2). Literature dared to preach materialistic atheism, [and also] combined hilarious obscenity with exquisite poetry..." and on page 115 it says: "the Senate took the lead in legislation(3)"
ReplyDeleteFootnote 1). I am not in any way against industry, in fact I rather like having it, but I put this art of the quote in because it shows how easy it is to let morals be governed by the business world instead of by (a) God through means of the family unit as it is supposed to.
Footnote 2). I think it is 100% OK to make art depicting political characters or ideas, yet I think right here Will Durant is trying to say that because the Romans changed the subjects of their art from religion to political things, they forgot about their religion and the good influence it was supposed to have on their behavior.
Footnote 3). To me, that implies that the power of legislation was moving around and kept changing the political bodies that had control of it. I think yes that power was best placed in the Senate (when the Senate members were moral, represented all the people, and did not try to go beyond their authority given to them by the people) and should not be captured by force or another means by another body unless the change is really for the good (like our Founding Fathers changed the place of that power)
I think all this is at least starting to happen now in the United States, and we really must fight for what is right and what will make us better. I like what I think Nathan said in World History today that we must educate ourselves in good principles, and that classes like this are part of that, Go Nathan!
p.s. I apologize for all the confusion parentheses
David Wilcox, Thank you for mentioning me in one of your posts! I hope you'll always have reason to be happy too!
Andrew Blake
Everybody keep posting!
ReplyDeleteTo finnish my thought in world lit. since I got cut off, about lieing and is it right. I agree with Meg that If I had the choice to lie and save hundreds of lives, or be honest and be responsible for the death of hundreds or even on life, I would much rather lie.
ReplyDeleteStrategems are not wrong in my point of view when it is a time of crisis and it is for a good cause. No I am not saying that the ends justify the means. For if I was in a war and I was the "good guy", and if I would have the opportunity to destroy a city that has done nothing wrong to try to scare the oposing force, I would not do that even though if i knew that it would cower the enemy. As Dr. Groft said, it is a slippery slope and it is basically a choice between the lesser evils.
For all the LDS students, Nephi slew Laban to get the brass plates so his posterity wouldn't be destroyed, isn't that a choice between the lesser evil and a greater evil?
I guess this is all I have to say right now.
So who thinks that the subject of lie vs. life is really confusing?
ReplyDeleteThere are good points to both sides of the argument. If a lie would save many lives, its alright, or if you tell the truth others will respect that and leave you alone. Something I think we need to take into account is that we live in a world where people are not moral. They may not place a value on human life or keep their word and so do not respect honesty. In this case the best option would be to lie. I know that if it came down to, say the life of my little sister, I would do ANYTHING to save her, lie even, without hesitation. You may not agree with me, but sometimes things are more about survival than anything, and I have learned to be a little more suirvivalistic more then other things some times. WHich brings me to my next point: It all comes down to your own personal descision, influenced by waht your beliefs and morals are. Major descisions like that have to be made in accordance to ones conscience.
Erik asked a good question about making sure he was on top of all the assignments. Here is my response.
ReplyDeleteErik,
Most of the assignment are on the syllabus. So look at the syllabus to see what's coming up.
If there is ever a colloquium, of course, the assignment would be to read and outline the reading. Remember, outlining is a combination of summarizing, finding key points, creating questions, sharing comments, etc.... All this stuff goes in your study guide which will be a huge part of your grade.
Every once in a while I give an assignment that is not on the syllabus. These are rare, but when it happens, just take note and make sure you submit it when I am asking for it. It's not that complicated, but it does take some time to sit down and get a handle on everything that is coming up. Please check with your running partner on this and see if you can work it out. If there are still questions, let me know.
I think it's awesome that you guys are being entrepreneurial. And I love your attitude about wanting to manage your time better. I know you can do it.
Dr. Groft
Jeremy, Lie vs Life
ReplyDeleteTyler and Megan,
I don't know how you can say that!
It is my firm belief that lying is wrong. That doesn't change according to the circumstances. "The way you do anything is the way do everything..." Either lying is wrong or it isn't. The question then becomes What about the lives of those people? Isn't it wrong to let them die when you can save them? Isn't that the same as killing them yourself? My answer is simple. The blame does not fall to you. You cannot claim responsibility for another person's actions, and someone else brought this about.
Another thought is this, if you are willing to compromise your morals here, what if the demand is that you steal something, or kill someone, where does it stop? Well my answer is that it stops before it begins. In the end I believe the command not to lie came from God and if you find yourself in that position all you have to do is the right thing, and if you do God will take care of the rest. If he is ready for those people to come to him then that is the right thing but if it is not against his will that they live then if you do the right thing and trust him then he will not let them die.
Like I said, there are good, convincing points in each argument, and it comes down to what you believe must be done, and at that point I won't judge who is right and who is wrong.
ReplyDeleteBrooklyn inspired me to add a poem i wrote. It is about that story when christ and another person are walking on the beach. It's not as good as Brooklyn's, but I think it's message is powerful:
I walked a beach with the Savior
and all along the way,
I saw my life pass before my eyes,
the good and bad of each day.
When we reached the end, I looked back
and saw a troubling scene.
In places there were one pair of prints,
And I asked, "Lord, why weren't you with me?
In my hardest trials,
when I needed you most,
one pair of prints isn't there.
You said you'd never leave, but where were you
when it was too much to bear?"
He smiled lovingly, and replied,
"I didn't ever leave. I carried you,
and those prints you see, alone,
belong to me."
So........I just wanted to share and to tell Brooklyn that she writes BEAUTIFUL poetry:)
Jeremy.
ReplyDeletedid Corrie ten boom get damned for eternity for lying to save the lives of those jews? I would think not. Does she even regret the lies she told? I think not. And do you think murder is better than lying? The situations I consider it okay to lie is when you are protecting others. Or when in time of war when some things must be kept secret
Life vs. lie
ReplyDeleteWow Jeremy you made this hard but a good hard.
Ok well I have to say that I would not lie. And here are a few reasons why. Lying can change people so much and one leads to the other, till pretty soon they no longer are who they thought they were. I was once asked to lie to a police man and I did not want to and the person that was telling me to got really mad. I ended up walking out of the house when I came back he said to just do whatever I wanted to but that lying would save me a lot of trouble and money. I told the police officer all the truth and did not get into any trouble and I did not have to worry about feeling guilty every time I thought about it or saw a police men. I am glad I told the truth that day I know it was the right thing to do. I do have to say this that in any kind of situation like that just follow the spirit and your better judgment. And if I was prompted to tell the lie I would but only if God as next to me in it.
Meg made the point that we do not live in a moral world and that this world may not respect life or honesty. My question is so does that make it ok to not be moral myself. I think not I think in a world with little or no morals what it the time we really need to stand up and be the example and get things moving in the right direction.
What I meant by the world being immoral was that even if we did tell the truth, they would still harm us, because they wouldn't respect honesty. In my experiance, there are times when, through no fault of my own, telling the truth would have resulted in something worse than the little lie. Maybe i'm just too survivalistic.
ReplyDeleteThis is a hard one, huh?
Yes Meg I agree completely the more I think about it the more I become confused as to what I think! I really like your poem it dues have a good message. I wish you lived closer and we could hang out, I have a feeling we would have a blast together. Thanks for being you!!
ReplyDeleteHehe! thanks. this is a really confusing concept huh? I keep saying that.:)
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI have not posted in the blog for EONS!
ReplyDeletejust something that I thought was interesting in the Odyssey was that the actual story of Odysseus getting home was only like 15-20 pages and the rest is about Telemachus and Odysseus planing and plotting against the suitors... (I made a mistake in my last post so I deleted it and did a new one...)
Hey Tyler, I would like to point out that when you referenced the story of Nephi and Laban, you mention that it was "a choice between the lesser evil and a greater evil?" and I think that the way in which you applied that is only partially true. You see, the matter that concerns me isn't the case by case "would you lie to save your little sister" but the choice part of it. In the story of Nephi and Laban it is not Nephi who decides that killing Laban is the right thing, but God. At first when Nephi was prompted to kill Laban he really didn't want to, but the Lord commanded it and so Nephi obeyed. Ultimately then, it was the Lord, in all his wisdom, who made the decision that killing Laban, at that time and for the given reasons, was the right thing to do; a decision in which we have no power or authority to make.
ReplyDeleteIf we were ever faced with a "lie or let your sister die" situation, our loving Father in Heaven would be there to council us on what to do. I'm sure if it was your sister's time to go back to him he would tell you, and then we would have to hope that we had the courage, obedience and faith to act, knowing that doing as God commands will always turn out right. On the other hand you would surely feel prompted to lie if God so commanded it. Did not Abraham understand this completely when God commanded him to sacrifice Isaac to him? In complete obedience, faith and great courage did Abraham take Isaac up to the mount, and just before he was about to slay him an Angel of the Lord came and stayed his hand! How incredible! All turned out well.
I know God will not fail us if we strive to follow him unwaveringly in all that we do; even in such petty things as honesty. He has given us commandments because he loves us and wants us to have joy, and as we see he continues to love us by making all things right when we obey him, even when it seems as if they won't be. I submit to you that if you have faith in God, sufficient to know that He will make all things right when you obey Him, it will be so.
Wow, so I just watched the recording on the colloquium for the Odyssey, Serious good discussion guys! I wish I was live so I could participate in that more.
ReplyDeleteWhen and IF to lie, and when to tell the truth, that can be a complicated argument...
I think yes, God commanded us not to lie, "honesty in all our dealings with our fellow men" However, I believe that if it comes to lives being threatened or say slavery, what about that? If I lived back in WWII and was hiding Jews in my home or helping slaves escape and someone came to my home looking for them, I'd be lying as if it were my own life on the line.
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ReplyDeletedavid
ReplyDeleteYes it was not Nephi who decided to kill Laban, but think of this. Laban is passed out drunk and completly defensless. Nephi is commanded to slay him. Isn't that murder? Laban probably deserved it but he was defensless. Nephi had the choice to kill a defencless man, or let his posterity dwindle in unbelief and be responsible for the spiritual murder of thousands as opposed to being responsible of the Murder, I shall call it such because of the lack of a better word of one man. I know that sounds wrong, but i can not think of another word to describe it. Can you think of another word describing Nephi killing the defenceless Laban?
Lie vs Life debate.
ReplyDeleteTyler,
Neither you nor I have any way, or right, of knowing anything about Corrie Ten Boom's eternal situation.
You didn’t listen to what David said Tyler. Ultimately the only time it is the “right decision” to break one of the commandments given to us by God, no matter how small and insignificant we may think it, is when we know, not just think but know, that he has commanded us to do so. We cannot see the consequences of our actions in the same way that the Lord does, he’s Omniscient! What is more than that, God has never lied. Not once. But he has brought about death. Think of Noah’s flood, he sent that and it wiped out all life, save what was on Noah’s ark, from off the face of the earth. In Numbers 23:19 it says “God is not a man that he should lie… hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken and shall he not make it good?” In Psalms 101:7 it says “He that worketh deceit shall not dwell within my house: he that telleth lies shall not tarry in my sight.” Proverbs 12:22 “Lying lips are abomination to the LORD: but they that deal truly are his delight.” It goes on and on. Furthermore we are commanded to become as God, and he does not lie. We are not commanded to be honest at all times except when there was a life in the balance. We are commanded to be honest.
Crystal,
If you are depending on your lies to keep those people safe then aren’t you relying on the arm of flesh? In 2 Kings 6:16 Elisha says “Fear not: for they that be with us are more than they that be with them.” By relying on the Lord and keeping his commandments you would be giving those men, women and children a better chance at living and getting away than if you relied on your own decisions and perceptions and broke God’s commandments. I read a book chronicling the life of a man, called Bother Andrew, that smuggled Bibles into countries behind the iron curtain before it came down. This idea of trusting God and having faith was the philosophy he used to do it. The book is called God’s smuggler and I highly recommend it, let me tell you it was an amazing book. He smuggled hundreds of Bibles through the Iron curtain simply by placing them in his suitcase and praying to God, asking that the guards would not see what the Lord did not want them to see, if we apply the same faith to the things we do whether it be hiding people in a WWII type situation, or telling the truth when we it could get those we love killed, God will be with us and things will go according to HIS plan. I know this is true. I know it.
I'm sorry for turning this into a religious discussion zone Dr. Groft, but I had something I needed to say so I said it in the only way I know how.
ReplyDeleteHey Descussion is good I am learning a lot from all of you!
ReplyDeleteAnd David I really liked your post it was well written. I had arownd the same thoughts about Nephi during the class but did not knwo how to say it, so thanks.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteHey guys...so about the religious aspect of lying, here are some verses in the Bible that talk about lying:
ReplyDelete"Lying lips are abomination to the Lord: but they that deal truly are his delight"
(Prov. 12: 22)
"Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another" (Lev. 19: 11)
"But the fearful,...and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."
(Rev. 21: 8)
From these scriptures, it's easy to tell that the Lord does not tolerate lying. It appears that the time to lie is NEVER. Because we are commanded not to lie, we should obey that commandment and make every possible effort to tell the truth. I don't think the question, "When is it okay to lie?" is the right question to ask. If someone asks that, it seems like he is trying to find a loophole in the commandments. In every situation, telling the truth should be #1 on people's lists. However, there are some situations where it seems that lying is the only way; but I believe that such situations are extremely rare. When confronted with a situation like that (to save someone's life, in times of war, etc.) I think the best course of action would be to pray and trust in God, as Jeremy said. I think that each of those situations is different however, and one person's way of solving a certain situation should not be used to justify another person's actions when faced with a similar situation.
One more thought: Jesus Christ made it through life without telling a single lie. We know this because we know he was without sin. So it's definitely possible to always tell the truth.
AND HAPPY BIRTHDAY DR. GROFT!!!!! :D :D :D :D :
Happy birthday to you! Happy Birthday To You! Happy Birthday Dr. Groft! Happy Birthday To You! And many more!!!
ReplyDeleteI hope you have a great day (:
Tyler.
ReplyDeleteWhat I said sounded off. I didn't mean I'd be relying completely on lying if I was in a situation such as that. I would have faith in God that he would protect me and the ones I was trying to help. I would be praying with all my might mind heart and strength. Don't misunderstand that, I would be praying so hard I would probably still be going in my sleep. But if a point came where it was the "Lie or let your sister die" situation like David mentioned, I would first try to go as far as I could on faith, but if a point arose where I had to twist a word here or there, I would. I know this sounds now like my faith is not strong or something. It is though. I think one of my weaknesses is I feel that I can rely on myself sometimes when others especially God would be a better decision. The quote "God helps others when they help themselves" is always in my mind so my brain instantly thinks "what can I do to help myself first so that I can get help and guidance from God?"
I guess I should pay more attention to those who did put a lot more faith in their God and followed as he said.
I think I will get that book and see how I like it. Thanks for the suggestion Tyler.
Thanks guys, this discussion I think actually has humbled me some. I probably needed it.
And Happy Birthday Dr Groft!
ReplyDeleteI am loving the Odyssey I have found so much to mark I am learning so much, here are some cool short ones I like.
ReplyDelete“Honesty is the best police”
“Go bail for a cheat, and he’ll cheat you out of you bail!”
“Grin and bear it in the land of the living”
“I call a man a good-for-nothing fool, who would set up to rival his host…he is docking his own tail.”
today we all sang to dr. groft for his birthday....he is putting the recording on youtube!
ReplyDeleteJeremy.
ReplyDeleteJon val Jon stole bread to feed some starving children he was responsble for. If you knew you would get away and if stealing bread was the only way you could feed the child, as in Jon val Jon's case, what would you do? would you steal something to save that poor starving child, or would you dispair and let the child die? It is simply a case of choosing the lesser evil. If you have a better solution please let me know
NEXT PARAGRAPH IS VERY IMPORTATANT!!!!
By The Way, if anyone catches this and they are in my simulation group, could yo please let me know how we can make this presentation together and please e-mail me at tyler@gwynnoffice.com I would really apreciate this.
Wow u guys this has really taken off!
ReplyDeleteI am going to go out on a limb here. Please, what I am about to say is very, VERY sensitive, and I would appreciate it being treated as such.
How many of you ahve been in situations where you would do anything to get out, but you cant? the survival instinct kicks in, and you wont argue with it. From personal experiance, when you are in that kind of a situation, you will do ANYTHING to get out. It's terrifying, that kind of desperation. It's heart breaking when you see the effects of those times etched into the faces and actions of your family. You become stonger though. You become the person yo were meant to be, and there is no other way to do it. But, in those times, you don't really think rationally, and out of a sense of preservation, you may tell a little lie to protect your loved ones from more emotional turmoil and pain. To me, the happiness, safety, and needs of my family are the most important thing. It's times like those when you turn to the Lord.
So, I dont think that i really answered the quotes, but I agree with certain points of davids and almost completely with Crystal's most recent comment. And I relate to Jean val Jean. I know what he felt like and why he did what he did.
well, I finished the odyssey yesterday and it was AWESOME!!!
ReplyDeleteI liked it about one hundred times more then the Iliad!!!
so I was checking out Andrew Grofts other blog (http://andygroft.blogspot.com/) and now I want to go to Europe with Andrew Groft next summer SO BAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
the only problem with that is that it is like 5500-6500$ a person and we do not have that.... :D but I can still try!
its that much?! dang, ill never go at the rate im earning money ( which is like nill :)
ReplyDeleteand i also thought that the odessey is better than the illiad. mucho less muerte:) and yea, that is really bad spanish:) who is psyched for sim 1?!! i am! and i know why none of you are blogging............>) sry, i had sugar, and i should probably just erase my post, but that requires pushing the backspace button for like eternity, and i am too lazy to do that, but i am not too lazy to continue this rediculous post, which now includes misssspelet wordz wich ar progrressivly geting wors, until tha ar unintelijabel normal to humnitee iz mee speekin n u cant undrstenasd mei, whch mns ei cn plen euil tings benhisd urt baksd nd u want undarstend nyting am saing >)
got to love me on a sugar high. and i just went back to the top of my post and waw did , i get off subject!i mean, i went from the odessy to world domination!
(and i just gave away what i had written in code, so my evil plans are useless, and now i am talking to myself so they can hear all my thoughts....gaahh!! stop talking!)
later :)
HAHA nice post :D
ReplyDeleteyeah the trip is expensive!!!
but I am trying, my entire family wants to go and if this property my grandpa has sells then we will go if not then... next time :/
I need help with my leadship project in social leadership...i'm having troubles getting ideas
ReplyDeleteyou could try to do a fundraiser or food drive for a local food bank or something...
ReplyDeleteTHE SIMULATION WAS AWESOME!!!!!!!!!!!!
HALLELUJAH!!!
ReplyDeleteI DO BELIEVE THAT I HAVE A SL PROJECT!!!!! YES!!!
also know as: an Eagle Project...
okay... this blog is as silent as the grave, anybody there?
ReplyDeleteWow. All of a sudden it has been silenced.... Hello emptiness! *echo echo echo*
ReplyDeleteSo I liked the writing workshop on Monday. I can't believe we wrote an essay on Batman... LOL! I got some good stuff out of it though :D