My name is Brooklyn Trotter I am in the World literature class. And I started reading The Iliad by Homer and I was reading about Achilles and how mad he is at Agamemnon. Because Agamemnon has to give back his meed of honor so he thinks that he can take Achilles meed of honor, well Achilles is not too happy about that. And he gets so mad he wants to kill him but his heart was divided in counsel wither to kill him "or to assuage (cause to be more favorable or inclined) his anger and curb his soul." I really like how he says well maybe I should be a little more inclined maybe I should deal with this in a better way. I think we could all curb our souls in one way or another.
I also found out that Hecatomb means an offering of an 100 oxen!!!
Looks like Brooklyn commented two weeks ago on this post. That's okay.
Hey, I really liked many of the posts from last week. I love when you guys are asking questions and and sharing cool insights, epiphanies and connections you made. KEEP IT UP!!! : )
I look forward to some really cool insights over the next week.
Hey so in the outlining class, i learned a fantastic new skill! Outlining is something i've never paid much attention too, but now i know that it is pretty important. I'm excited to practice it!
Class was very interesting and fun today. Unlike Jordan, I am a little leery about doing outlining since I have never done it before. I also read out of the Illiad about the greif of Achilles over his friend Patroclus' death. And then I got to thinking what wouold it be like if I had a friend that I loved as dearly as Achilles loved Patroclus and he died. And how would I feel. Then I thought maybe there was such a attachment because they were sodiers. I have read how during a war, some soldiers form a very strong bond so maybe that's the way Achilles and Patroclus were.
so, I found this interesting. I have heard about the Iliad before now I just never read it an all I heard about was the gods all fighting and Achilles and hector and Helena and paris now that I am reading it I am wondering why did I not hear about other main characters like: Diomed, Agamemnon, Nestor and all of the other main characters? some of the other "main characters" like paris and helena are only in like two pages of the book!
So here is a little epiphany i had while reading the Iliad the other day.. :)
In The Iliad I learned an important lesson about distractions. They are sometimes okay, but usually bad. In life, if we want to be productive, setting goals is a must. But because we live in the world, there are distractions that can keep us from reaching our goal if we pay too much attention to them. An example of a man not heeding distractions is found in Hector. Hector was a Trojan warrior who was among the best fighters their army had. He left the battle at one point to go into the city so he could make sacrifices to a goddess. The business of sacrificing was very important to them and sometimes vital to their success in battle. As he is going to and fro about the city, his mother comes to him. She offers him rest saying, “Wait till I can bring you wine that you may make offering to Jove and to the other immortals, and may then drink and be refreshed. Wine gives a man fresh strength when he is wearied as you now are with fighting on behalf of your people.” Hector answered her, “Honoured mother, bring no wine, lest…I forget my strength.” He knew he couldn’t let himself get distracted because that might make him lose sight of his goal, to make sacrifices. He keeps walking and is met by his friend, who tells him to come and rest. He again refuses, determined to stick to his goal. A third time his wife bids him to sit with her for a bit and rest. A third time he says “I cannot do so”. He knew his commitments and he stuck to them. There are always distractions in our life as well and some of them may be good things, but they will still keep us from reaching our goals. We need to make sure our goals are in line with what we want and then stop for nothing till we have reached them.
I am in the world lit. class and Wednesday we were talking about Utopia a little bit and it made me start thinking and this is what happened: Is a Utopia possible? Can we have a perfect state in social, political, and moral aspects? First let’s consider some things. In 3 Ne. 12:48 (Matt. 5:48) it says: “Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I , or your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.” So God wants us to be perfect. Here is something else to look at in D&C 88:35 it says: “that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.” So laws have the power to preserve, perfect, and sanctify us. So to get a little deeper what laws create a Utopia. In Amendment one to the constitution it says: “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the tight of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” All that sounds pretty good to me but would it create a utopia. I think not and this is why Moral perfection is one of the aspects in an utopian society. A person’s knowledge about right and wrong and the adjoining principles have a lot to do with religion. And if we are not allowed to make laws concerning religion how then can we reach that moral perfection. But lets say we do make laws and lay out what is right and what is wrong. And then we enforce them taking away moral freedom. And make every one conform to the moral, political and social standards we set. And then this Utopia turns into a dystopia where everything is oppressive and controlled. Dues any of this sound familiar Satan had a plan much like this where there would be no moral freedom No Agency. Yes we would be perfect but we would not learn we would not progress. So if you where to ask me of a Utopia is possible I would say no, a dystopia is possible maybe but not to be desired in any way. So those of us who desire peace and perfection will simply have to wait till Christ rules. And in the meantime try to prefect our selves though Christ. By Brooklyn Trotter
Thoughts on a peace of the Iliad: "For hatefull to me even as the gates of hell is he that hideth one thing in his heart and uttereth another". I think we really should try to be more honest in what we say. Because the more we say things that are not in your hearts the more we become two faced we come away farther and farther from who we really are and we end up with two extremes. If we say every thing honestly we may be reviled but at least we will be able to respect ourselves.
Couple of interesting things. The style of war they had was different and similar in some ways to modern warfare. Similarites are the capture and possesion of equipment, (though the Greeks would take armor that was damaged...?). The differences that i noticed are that the Greeks ate very well, while modern military dont eat well at all. They also had squires running around, hauling away armor, carrying weapons and caring for horses. Nowadays, sodiers have to carry their won equpment.
When Patroclus sees the Greeks being defeated at the ships, he goes to Achilles and asks permission to go fight, which Achilles grants to him and all his other men. Its interesting that nothing could soften Achilles except the supplication and tears of his dear friend. Not Agamemnon or the deaths of his fellow countrymen could convince him to help. But when Patroclus came to him and requested permission to fight, Achilles gave it. Its thought provoking; what kind of influence do we have on our friends (and them on us)?
i was wondering the same thing Nathan. Maybe its because of all the abridging thats gone on over the years. they have to tell the story of the illiad in less detail, so they take the main story line and the people in that story line and write it out as a shortened version of the illiad. the people like diomed get lost because they are details and dont help carry the main plot line along.
Brooklyn, You said in your post that a Utopia was impossible (at least on this side of the second coming). With all respect, I completely disagree! I don't want to get into a doctrinal battle here as this isn't really the place but if you look up Matthew 5:48 and read the JST in the footnotes, and then go to 1 Nephi 3:7 a case can be made doctrinally. However I disagree on more than doctrinal grounds. You say that only a Dystopia is possible because the only way to get people to work together on the level of a Utopia is to force them. I vehemently disagree! People can change, people can do the right thing because it is the right thing and people can live as God would have us live. It IS possible. I could cite scriptures on these subjects but I have already said that I don't want to do that here, so instead I will simply say this: The basic nature of mankind is good. We are sons and daughters of God, Brothers and Sisters to the Savior, we have been given bodies, and the natural man tempts us, but our basic nature is the same as that of he in whose image we were made and he is good. We are capable of so much good, such extraordinary things can come from our willingness to do and be good, that it exceeds imagination. But if we don't believe, really truly BELIEVE, that We/I/You and everyone around us is able to achieve those things then we won't. I won't You won't and they won't. Without belief in the basic goodness of people we will never get there. Because we can't so we won't.
Dr. Groft, Are we suppose to outline all our reading like we discused today?
Dr. Groft's Response:
Trevor,
At this point I have decided not to REQUIRE that you outline like we learned today; however, you would be wise to do it anyway.
Here's the thing. We have papers that need to be written, tests that need to be taken, and study guides that need to be written and kept on an almost daily basis. Those who keep good study guides, do better on their tests, learn more and frankly have more fun learning. Remember, that study guides are written by you. They are simply a compilation of annotations, comments regarding quotes or ideas from books, outlines, observations, etc... When I was a student, I succeeded by keeping these on everything I read. And like Mr. Ure said, it wasn't that complicated. I tried to write down a few key observations and the main ideas from each page or chapter I read. Then, when I re-read my study guide prior to my tests, I remembered MUCH more than I thought I would. It was like my few comments reminded me of the whole thing, but in way less time than reading the books again.
Hope that helps.
Dr. Groft
(I am going to post this question and response to our blog.)
Great epiphanies, questions and discussions going on. Continue posting and reading each others' posts and not only will your grades go up, but more importantly, your educational experience will be richer, and your ability to communicate and lead will be enhanced!
"When we increase literacy, we substantially reduce tensions." Three Cups of Tea (pg.228)
When I read things, I typically put myself in the book or relate the book to me in someway so it becomes part of me, not just words on a page. This particular statement really jumped out because when I related the statement to me…it was exactly what I needed to learn.
I am literate ( as are all of you, due to the fact that you are reading this),so I did not think that I needed to learn how to read. Yes, people all around the world need to have the blessing of Jane Austin, but that does not teach me something relevant for right now, in this moment. That teaches me a whole other set of lessons, they could come in multiple volumes there are so many, but those are lessons that pertain to the future and not right now, which is what I needed. So I began to think of illiteracy in another light…and then bam! I have a lesson that pertains to this moment, right now. Judgment, anger, hurt, confusion; these are all byproducts that we get when we are illiterate of something (a person, what something is, ourselves, a situation, etc.) How often I am annoyed with someone or think that they are being rude when there is usually a reason behind that we do not understand. Just last week I thought my friend was being really short and rude with another friend so I was annoyed with her. The next day she called me really needing to talk; turns out that she is dealing with some ridiculously hard things that no one should ever have to go through. I was just illiterate as to what she was going through. So I have decided to take the time to understand and comprehend things because when we do that …”we substantially reduce tensions”… :)
I did not know exactly what to say, but I knew I wanted to post something so here goes. I thought that the outlining class was very helpful, while I already knew how to outline I felt that going over it again was very helpful. I feel like it is somewhat easier to outline now that we are going over it. I had also never outlined by picking only a few words out of the text and I found that very helpful when I go back to review my notes.
Hey, I'm Jeremy, I am in both the World Literature and the World History recorded classes. Please bear with me as I'm a couple classes (and all of the blog assignments) behind. I should be caught up by the end of the week but for now Dr. Groft told me to go ahead and post old assignments here in the current thread.
This is for World History it's my (very late) thoughts on me as a root.
Why do I need to be a leader/judge/wise person? There are several answers to this question. I will examine each of them separately. 1. I want to be a leader - I have wanted to change the world for as long as I can remember. One of my childhood dreams was to be an inventor or scientist to rival well known names like Thomas Edison, and Isaac Newton. I have hoped to make discoveries that are studied by later generations much as we study the works of Luis Pasteur or Marie Curie. As I got older I expanded my role models to include people like Joan of Arc, Ghandi, and other great leaders of their caliber. Also about 6 years ago I chose my ultimate model, and began striving to follow my savior Jesus Christ. Ultimately I want to be a leader because these (and many, many others, some fictional some living today) have inspired me. I want to leave the world better for my having lived in it and leadership is the only way to do that. 2. I believe that we as human beings have a duty from God to be leaders, each in our own way. Whatever path we take in our life we should be trying to inspire and uplift those who are watching us. Whether that is our family and friends, the fans of the books that we write, clients from work, listeners on our radio show, our students, our coworkers, or the nation that we are attempting to lead; they should see in us examples of charity, mercy, love, determination, justice, hard work, or to put it shortly they should see in us examples of leadership. I want to live up to this God-given responsibility, so I have much to learn. 3. I don't want wonderful teachers, and inspiring mentors like Dr. Groft to have worked in vain do I? No, so I’ll have to become a wise old root as people just keep on handing me tools and stealing my excuses.
Hey, I was just reading in "Heroes of History" for World History and had this thought. I was reading about Amenhotep IV(Ikhanton) and how he changed the religion of the people and forced them to worship his way. I think that people should choose be able to choose what they beleive and how to worship. When we were talking about all those religions on Monday I was just thinking about how cool it is to be free to choose what religion I want to beleive. Anyway, the classes are great and I'm learning alot.
Today I was reading in the Illiad about how the gods started attaking one another after Achilles joined the battle and I was surprised how they were worried about Achilles overturning fate and sacking the city Illus before he died. If fate was an important thing, than how could one overturn it? My impression was that fate was set in stone, or the greeks thought that. How could one overturn fate anyway?
Well I'm not having any great epiphany or anything right now, when I have those I tend to have a bad habit of forgetting to write them down. Working on that. But I wanted to post something up here. I am reading the Iliad some tonight and find myself kind of getting deeper into it and enjoying it a little more. I like the book on Hector, book 6. I know that was kind of far back, but I really liked it. Even though the half of it feels like it's descriptions of EVERYTHING, I don't quite understand the layout of the battle, for example when Hector is headed back to Troy to tell the women to pray to Athena, he stops when Diomedes confronts him and gives half his life history... Where are they that he can just stop for a chat? How far from the city are they?? The layout is the one thing I have a hard time getting but half the Iliad feels like a description on everything else.
Wow, I just read all the previous posts and you guys are way amazing, so keep up the great thoughts cuz I'm learning a lot from you. Oh and I also wanted to let all of you know that I'm copying and pasting the really cooling things that you guys write to my Study Guide just cuz its so good, so thanks, I'm learning a lot. But here's some thoughts I had...(I'll try and share more in class tomorrow)
Well as I was reading and examining each character I decided to start noting which characters give respect to the gods. It shows which characters are humble enough to acknowledge a greater power than themselves, although many of them are great, as well as other things. Eventually I started noting which ones mention or refer to the gods and their power/influence, which pray to the gods, give sacrifices, obey and thank the gods as well. It tells a lot about the character of the person, wether they are humble, obedient, greedy, wise and such. So far Hector and Diomed are the two most "god friendly" characters.
I was reading about the Israelites and their bondage in Egypt and I got to thinking about why they could have become so after living their for 400 years and I had an idea. In chapter 4 it talks about the pharaohs and how Ikhnaton (ruled from 1361-1352 B.C.) got rid of polytheism and instituted monotheism, and how all the corrupt governing class of priests hated that because it took their power away. So the different regions under Egypt broke up because of discontent and after Ikhnaton died, they were all separated. Well the different regions naturally reverted back their former beliefs of the gods because the priests wanted all the power and the ruled class were uneducated and dumbed down into submission by the priests, and during the reign of Ramses II (from 1292=1225 B.C.) Egypt was once again reunited. Okay so lets pause there, the Israelites came to Egypt around 1650 B.C. and after about 400 years became Egypt's slaves, or around 1250 B.C. which is during Ramses II rule. So I think, and you can compare this to other times in history(like Hitler and the Jews (haha the Jews again, poor Jews)), that Ramses II made the Israelites scape goats to be commonly hated among the Egyptians because they believed in One God, and their whole nation had just gone through a major rebellion and discontent because of such forced belief by Ikhnaton. And plus, now they had a massive work force for them to lord over so they were fine with it. Its interesting, if what I have said is the case, to note the many times in history where a group is made a scapegoat and then dehumanized and treated terribly so that leaders can command the passions of the masses and reap ultimate control and power.
Oh and I must correct my self if I am wrong, because I didn't check, but I'm not sure if the Israelites still believed in the one God at the point they were taken into bondage or not, perhaps they had forgotten God and adopted the Egyptian traditions (or at least some of them) and were now being punished for it. Either way, I think they were made the scapegoat for some reason.
Jaremy, Well I have an argument to what you are saying but then I started thinking maybe you are right (mostly anyway haha). I still believe that you can’t have a utopia on this earth without Christ as our king . And I am more than willing to continue this conversation/debate eltsware. Bmt.school@gmail.com . I do think God expects us to try our hardest to be perfect morally, but do most of us really try to be perfect socially, and politically. It takes everything to be perfect and you have to want it bad, and if there are people who don’t want it enough to put forth some real effort well that really messes up our Utopia. Within our self’s and possibly our families we can do our best to reach a utopia but other than that… well I will leave that up to you. (:
Brooklyn, As far as striving to be perfect morally vs socially/politically... Isn't all the same? It would seem to me that if you were perfectly moral, that would take care of your social interactions too wouldn't it? Also, it is my belief that by thinking 'There are always people who won't do the work to get along with us.' not only do you ensure that there WILL be those people "messing up our Utopia" but, you kind of dehumanize them which might be slightly counterproductive. Ultimately I think you have a point according to practical wisdom but, personally, I think practicality is highly overrated and in many instances does more harm than ever it could make up for. I'm willing to agree to disagree, but I couldn't just let your first comment go unchallenged because I have very strong opinions that it disagrees with.
Final note: I wasn't saying this is a bad place to debate this as a concept, I just didn't want to get into a bible bashing battle with you, especially not here in a class that isn't connected to the church, so I didn't try to prove my point scripturally. (when is that ever productive anyway?)
Tyler, Good point that's interesting to think about. I think it goes back to the fact that the Greek deities are not omniscient (panicking that something might upset their plans implies that they didn't see it coming), or omnipotent (they are far more powerful than man but the instance of Diomed actually fighting with them shows they are not all powerful). They are more like super-powerful human beings that have set themselves up as deities than actual deities themselves, and as such their decrees of fate could, conceivably, go wrong (though it seems as if they have enough power that they should be able to make things go there way). That's kind of how I see it anyway, thanks for the cool thought.
Andrew Blake from World History Solon, the archon of Athens seems like a pretty good leader who is concerned for the people's welfare, and a good moral man. And also Cleisthenes, he was the same kind of man and governmental leader.
p.s. Is there a way to comment directly on someone else's comment?
If fate was a god, and she would have power to decree the fate of humans and gods alike, wouldnt in esscence make her more powerful than the other gods because she can determine their fate? and thanks jeremy for the answer,but the gods were more powerful than man, than can't they decree what man will do since they are less powerful?
Hey guys! So I know I didn't say anything in class today so I though I might throw one of my thoughts on the Iliad out there. Okay so here is the quote. "But the heart of Achilles was set on meeting Hector son of Priam, for it was with his blood that he longed above all things else to glut the stubborn lord of battle." I thought this was interesting just because it shows what kind of monster Achilles had turned into because he gave into his hate and revenge.
Jeremy World History In last Friday's class, many of you were defending Achilles (sort of). I couldn't believe my ears!! You have to remember Agamemnon did NOT take his wife. She was a concubine, a prize or trophy, who had only to purposes. One, a source of "Honor" similar the scalps an American Indian would take. Two, an outlet for Achilles lustful desires. In refusing to accept a return of his girl, Achilles himself shows that he was just mad. If any of you have younger siblings you should recognize the actions of Agamemnon and Achilles. Squabbles like this happen almost every time 3 year olds get together to play.
Here is how I see this: Agamemnon sees that he cannot keep his prize, NOT because then all of the Acheans will die, but because if he tries to keep her they are liable to tear him limb from limb and give her back themselves. In other words he sees he can't win the argument so he throws a mini tantrum to try and show that he is still the boss even if he didn't get his way this time. Achilles, calls him out on it. He says come on now Agamemnon be reasonable... show sense... get along... This was actually moderately brave trying to stand up for the rights of himself and his comrades when the king is mad, but at the same time you know he wouldn't be taking it any better if his situation were reversed with Agamemnon's. Agamemnon refuses to be reasoned with and since Achilles was the one to stand up and single himself out, of course Agamemnon decides to take his girl.
(Basic child psychology really, Agamemnon feels picked on so he wants to make someone else suffer for his suffering, Achilles tries to make him see reason and in doing so singles himself out. Agamemnon vents his unhappiness on Achilles and feels better in a mean way.)
This is the opportunity for Achilles to show that he is not as big a baby as Agamemnon. It smarts to get his favorite prize taken but if he had manned up and ignored it, then Agamemnon gets to vent AND feel he is in control (both important if he is to be pacified), Chryse gets his daughter back thus taking care of the original problem, and the chain of suffering would end with Achilles. But Achilles doesn't do that. He feels just as victimized as Agamemnon, more even, so, since he doesn't have the power to just vent immediately like the king does, he throws a sulky fit and refuses to fight instead. Thus carrying the stupid, sulky, two year old fight out of the arena in which nothing more than someones pride can be hurt, and into the real world were men can, and do, die for it.
In the end, the ENTIRE episode was because two grown men, KINGS EVEN, never learned what every mother tries to teach every two year old: The Entire universe does Not revolve around YOU!
Tyler, No, they can't decree what men will do. If you notice all they ever do is influence the men. When they want someone to do something they either go tell them to do it, or try and persuade them to do it. It's not that the men can't deny the will of the deities, they just choose not too. It would be similar to someone having a gun to your head, they can tell you to do something and you can choose not to do it, but then you have to deal with the consequences which just might be a bullet in your brain. The Greek Deities aren't really divine, the only characteristic of divinity they have is Immortality. But they are powerful, and too often the people in these stories choose to do what the Deities tell them, rather than what is right, simply because the Deities have bigger sticks.
During World History class, I had an intersting epiphany when we were talking about the greeks and how reason or logic was put above the revaltion or what the god(s) said. So hear it goes.
We can not rely on reason alone, nor can we rely on revaltion alone. We must use both with wisdom and treat them as equal partners. Are life becomes out of balance if we put one above the other. Some might argue that this is sacreligious because religion should be the most important thingin our lives. I agree with that, but if we did not think highly of reason, what would we be? Mere animals and than what good would religion be? We would have no use for it since we would be animals. So I repeat that reason and revalation should be held as equal partners because reason is what made us to want and need revalation.
For example; with my reasoning powers, I can decide that I have little knowledge about the Universe and since it has so many perfect laws and it has such perfect order, than there must be a higher being than man that knows more. so I ask that higher being for revalation. I guess I am also saying that reason should be used first and than revaltion, but both are equal partners.
Jeremy, World Literature Something I noticed in the Iliad, when Hector and Ajax have their duel and neither of them die before nightfall. Two of the deities (in the form of heralds) come and tell them to call off the duel. Ajax immediately demands that Hector accept this before he will, in essence admitting that Ajax got the better of him (which he did). I don't know about anyone else but for me, that would be a hard thing to do. Here Hector is the best of the Trojans, he was told by the Minerva (through his brother) to enter this duel, and he goes into the duel with the type of bravado that can be hard to swallow when you lose. All of this is only made worse by the fact that he did get the worst of the encounter and thus should be feeling a little embarrassed. But despite all this Hector immediately acquiesced, he agrees to call off the fight because of nightfall, and then goes on to complement Ajax on his strength and prowess and suggest an exchange of gifts! Talk about a gracious loser. I think the strength of character exhibited here is especially extraordinary in lieu of the behavior shown repeatedly by the leaders of the Acheans and most especially Achilles, what a contrast!
i thought our first social leadership class was amazing!! i especially loved the talk about honor. When i said " we honor the president because of the position he holds, not because of the person he is," i like what Dr Groft said how "respect" is a better word, and i agree! Him, i and im sure alot of other people will never "honor" the president.
i am in Us History, and im reading "Common Sense", by Thomas Paine... and it makes so much sense haha! i never really got the concept that these people are the reason that we are free! i mean, im told that all the time, but to think about what they REALLY did for us brings tears to my eyes! im proud to say im an American!:)
wow! u guys are seriously blowing me away. these comments are things i would have never thought about on my own, so thanks for sharing!
one thing i want to comment on is(of course) the illiad. what jeremy said really made me think (a lot of what he says does that...look forward to seeing u in class!) there are some very humble men who are trying to do the right thing here. hector is only trying to protect his family and his countrymen because paris is mental and has a brain the size of a pea and got everyone into this mess in the first place. diomed is trying to protect others as well. its sad to think that they go to such trouble for something so simple. its interesting to find that you have such men on both sides of the conflict. u also have men like paris and agamemnon and achilles on both sides. so who are the good guys and who are the bad guys? the characters in this book, homer has made them very human. everyman that dies, we get told something about him. the same men are doing the same things as the enemy. so why do they feel the need to take eachother out? if you put them all in a dark room, could you tell who was who? could who tell an acheaans voice from a trojans? would you try and kill your enemies at the risk of killing your friends? maybe thats how we need to look at some things. blind ourselves a little bit so that we can truly see people as they are.
Jeremy, World Literature Thanks Megan, I'm sorry to say I'm not in the live class. I get to watch, and be illuminated by, you guys though, which makes me happy.
The Iliad is truly a tragedy isn't it? I just want to start telling the characters all the ways they can get out of the war, but most of them don't want to get out of it do they? The Acheans see honor in the fight, and they don't want to leave without sacking Troy. And the Trojans... I don't know what to say about the Trojans. I guess it's a clan thing and a pride thing. They refuse to just see that all they had to do was hand over Helen and Paris when the Acheans first came. And now they don't want to admit defeat after the Acheans have caused them so much trouble, not to mention razing their outlying villages. But it all feels so senseless.
Well here's what I wanted to share in Lit Class but didn't get a chance to.
Hector the Great
Hector is incredible. I’m sure we’re all aware of that, but I just wanted to note his last encounter with his wife. His love for her is so pure, and knowing that he would probably never see her again, leaves her with words of comfort, and as I would like to point out much wisdom.
After holding his son and giving him his last blessing that he would be even better than himself “...he laid the child again in the arms of his wife, who took him to her own soft bosom, smiling through her tears. As her husband watched her his heart yearned towards her and he caressed her fondly, saying, "My own wife, do not take these things too bitterly to heart. No one can hurry me down to Hades before my time, but if a man's hour is come, be he brave or be he coward, there is no escape for him when he has once been born. Go, then, within the house, and busy yourself with your daily duties, your loom, your distaff, and the ordering of your servants...”
So we see that he comforts her and basically tells her that what happens, happens and the only thing we can do about it is to make the best of it, even in the wake of death as was his case. How true that is. We must remember that by our good choices we can avoid many of the bad things in life, however bad things will still come, and when they do, when things happen to us beyond our control, we must simply remember to make the best of it.
That was my epiphany, but as a side note, tribute to Hector, and to finish the quote, he adds, “...for war is man's matter, and mine above all others of them that have been born in Ilius." And that just stands as a testament that he was a man who knew his duty and did all in his power to carry it out, even to his death. What an amazing example.
Oh and I also love the rebuke that Hector gives to Paris. He first acknowledges the good things about him, then rebukes him, and then encourages him to be proactive and go out and right the wrong he has done, and offers his help and support in doing so.
"My good brother," answered Hector, you fight bravely, and no man with any justice can make light of your doings in battle. But you are careless and wilfully remiss. It grieves me to the heart to hear the ill that the Trojans speak about you, for they have suffered much on your account. Let us be going, and we will make things right hereafter, should Jove vouchsafe us to set the cup of our deliverance before ever-living gods of heaven in our own homes, when we have chased the Achaeans from Troy."
That is the way to rebuke someone, it actually has an affect and sets the person in the right direction to change and fixing the thing they did wrong. He’s just awesome.
Its interesting to note that Nestor, the great orator of the Acheans, rebukes his men in order to inspire them and do what he wants them to. Its his leadership style. He talks of himself and the great things others have done and then asks why then cannot they do the same. He almost gets them to feeling shameful and not good enough, and that they are expected to do what he bids them. Its his way of leadership, yet he never expresses to them any appreciation for the good things they do and they always feel less than him and that they are failures. So his leadership gets things done, but does not inspire them or allow them to do great things of their own accord. I would say that it isn’t the best.
Hector’s leadership however, is filled with love for those he leads. It seems to me that he treats his men as equals. He accepts their faults and tries to help them to overcome them, and he also acknowledges their good things and leads by example with courage and might. And because of this his men are much more apt to obey him and follow him because they want to and not because they are being persuaded to or feel ashamed to like Nestor. (The Rebuke Hector gives to Paris above is one such example of Hector's greatness)
But anyways the fruits of each of their leadership is pointed out in book 8 when Hector is driving the Acheans back and Nestor is caught in the fray at the front with one of his horses down. Diomedes notices this and calls to Ulysses to come back and help, but Ulysses either out of fear or for whatever reason does not come to his aid and Diomedes ends up being the only one. Whereas in this same battle, two of Hectors charioteers get killed while the Acheans are trying to kill Hector, however every time one of them die, Hector calls for help and immediately someone gets up there and volunteers knowing that that position was especially dangerous. This loyalty that Hector's men display comes only because of the way he leads his men, and so as we read we should take note of his style of leadership and try to emulate it in ourselves.
Hey I really liked your last post, I was actually thinking about that myself and posted something along those lines in last weeks blog, but I think you explained it better. Keep it up.
Agamemnon displays great leadership qualities, quite similar to Hector. He compliments sincerely and always encourages others by recognizing what they do well. However, the difference between himself and Hector is that he himself is immoral and not a man I would associate with and take pride in outside of battles and war.
Diomed is great because he is fearless, or in other words extremely brave. He leads by example and loves his men, as shown when he sleeps in his armor, on the ground, with them. I also thought the council he gives to the watchmen was valuable, he said “Watch on, my children, and let not sleep get hold upon you, lest our enemies triumph over us.” And that’s important to remember in all circumstances, that we should never let our watch or guard against evil wane; we should not take off our “armor” and let evil get hold and triumph over us. And we shortly see thereafter that the allies of the Trojans who did not set watch were killed in their sleep.
Okay, I hope you aren't getting tired of me, and all these things are kinda random, but I really like what I was able to pull out here. Take a look at the size of this nugget!
Ulysses is both humble and wise. I love what he says after Diomed complements him for being the choicest among the other great men to go into the Trojan camp, he says, “Son of Tydeus, say neither good or ill about me, for you are among Agrives who know me well...” By this we see that he takes no vanity or pride in the fact that others think well of him, and also that his honor is not supported by what others say of him, but by what he does, his actions. In turn I recognize him as a great man. This lesson is one Achilles should have learned.
Now about Achilles...I always used to think he was a hero, but now I realize that he most definitely was not. We all know the story; he quarreled with Agamemnon, and as Jeremy pointed out he should have been the bigger man from the beginning and just forgotten about it, however he doesn’t and invents excuses for his being mad and not helping when in the end it comes down to the fact that his pride won’t let him get over it and he throws a fit. In doing so, he destroys the person he was thought to be. A hero does not do what he did. He could have easily saved face and just taken it and came out a better man, however we see that his personal development is far outweighed by his amazing martial abilities. Perhaps it was even neglected because he was able to get along so well and go so far by just being an incredible warrior. He reminds me of Michael Phelps and his multiple mess ups from drinking and driving to smoking pot. Tiger Woods is another example. In these and countless other examples we see that just because one can do great (physical) things does not necessarily mean they themselves are great. One would think that great deeds follow from being a great person, however we see that sometimes this is not the case. That really reinforced to me how important and valuable it is to develop a good character and have good morals, because otherwise we may just end up like Achilles, Michael or Tiger, being able to do great things but failing as person, failing yourself.
Okay I am so sorry this must seem monotonous but its late and I missed some key points and can't get to sleep without adding them to finish the thought on the post just above.
So anyways Achilles ruins himself out of stubborn pride, and Phoenix sees this and says to him, "Battle with your pride and beat it"! And thats just great. Ultimately, and in conclusion, Achilles is as one with great talent, but no character, utterly lacking in that which makes men most esteemed.
I was reading on page 226-27. Its describing Vulcan, a god who works metals. At the very bottom of the page he is building a new shield for Achilles and it goes on and on about what he paints on this shield. I could not help thinking that the shield is a distinguishing feature of his stature and heroism. From it his accomplishments are displayed. He totes the magnificent shield with pride. I was wondering what its equal would be in todays society... a car?...a professional title?
Diagramming a document or paper is simply creating a picture or a set of modules that explains the document in one page (sometimes two). It is a way to visually show the succession of ideas and the culminating thesis or theme or key point, etc...
As I’ve studied this book, I’ve concluded that Homer deliberately wrote and portrayed the huge contrast between characters and happenings so we could learn from them. We can draw things from the watchmen story, the different leaderships that result in loyalty and fear, the humility and pride and other examples. Here is one more that he illustrates.
When Hector calls on his men for a volunteer to go and spy on the Acheans, a very dangerous task, he says that whomever will do so will naturally reap much honor but also will be given riches (and I think a pair of extremely valuable chariot horses). Unfortunately this reward motivated Dolon to do as Hector wished for the wrong reason. Dolon goes, but only for the reward promised and not in obedience out of love or service to please Hector. As it plays out we see that Dolon is then snared and killed after proving himself a fool by truthfully telling his captors the layout of the Trojan’s camp because he lacked courage and determination and was afeared for his life. As we see, without the proper purpose or frame of mind, when he is put to the test he utterly fails. He lacked the proper reason for what he was doing, and is killed in dishonor and as a traitor.
Just like him, we need to do things for the right reasons. This principle is so important. If we do things with selfish desires, no matter how good it is, in the end it is done in vain. Yes, it may help others, but we ourselves miss the ultimate purpose.
When we obey God, we do it for the most part because it makes us happy, however we should always (and especially in those cases where we don’t see or understand why) obey God because we love him and want to please him. Like wise this principle applies as we serve others. When we do so, we must do it because we want to and because we love those we serve. All we gain when we serve grudgingly is the secondary blessing that we are at least doing what we’re supposed to and striving to make a good habit, when the greatest blessing of service is obviously missed. This also must be remembered when we reprimand or punish others (such as younger siblings), it should be done because we love them and are trying to teach them and help them be better. It mustn’t be done to give them what they deserve, make them look or feel bad or for any other reason. If we do not correct them in love, we cannot effectively correct them and most often end up dealing evil. I’m sure you could come up with many more examples of this, but in conclusion we should always remember to follow Christ’s teaching to Love One Another. Only then can we be sure that our intentions are good and that we are doing what we do for the right reason, learning what we should learn, and becoming who we should become.
homer likes to meddle with my mind, in the beginning of the book Agamemnon was acting like an idiot and then took Achilles lady, Achilles then prayed to his mother and she got Zeus to make the Trojans start winning I agreed with Achilles at that point and was like, "HA! take THAT Agamemnon!" but then it leaves Achilles for half the book and starts talking about the Greeks and Trojans it goes back and forth for a while then almost all of the Greek heroes get wounded; Diomed, Agamemnon, Nestor and all the others, finally the only ones left are the ajaxes and they hold the Trojans at the wall for a while but then Jove makes the Trojan beat through the defenses and by this time I am thinking "what? the Trojans can't win!!!!" but then I remember Achilles, and think "I don't care about that spoiled brat!" and want the Greeks to win! then Patroclus goes out to fight (Achilles right hand man and best friend) goes out and even though Jove had said "now I will have him beat back the Trojans and then hector will kill him" I still cheered Patroclus on and when he died and the huge fight over his body transpired I thought "ahh! He was not supposed to die!" and then Achilles hears about the news and I though ha, serves him right but then again he did just lose his best friend and then his mom goes off to get him armor while the Trojans are nearly at the ships and you can sense that the final battle is about to begin...
You guys are all amazing. And such an inspiration! Haha :)
Well, because I've been sick for the last couple of days...almost a week...I'm behind in school. And it's lame. But I'll survive.
I just wanted to let ya'll know what's going on in my life! And let you guys know how amazing you all are! Literally, reading these comments made my day. You guys are bodacious.
If I'm not in class, it's because I'm not caught up yet...or I've been abducted by little blue men in red jumpsuits. I'll watch the recordings.
Today I was reading out of Will Durant's heroes of history, and in chapter 7 about the golden age of greece, i got the impression that the golden age of greece wasn't that golden. There was hardly any morals. And wars during a golden age doesn't make it sound very golden. To me a golden age wouldn't have wars, and it would have a fairly moral people.
The greek golden age may have been a golden age for somethings like science and the arts, but I do not think that it was a complete golden age.
I was also surprised how many of the great men in Greek history, and the greeks as a whole, were homosexual. That definitly does not make it a complete golden age in my eyes.
General comments I want to sum up what seems to be a general opinion of characters:
Hector, THE MAN!!: Absolutely Friggin Awsome. He is a strong person morally, physically, and spiritually. He also is very wise and compassionate.
Agamemnon: Kind of iffy. There are times where we really like him, and there are times where we want to smack him and tell him to grow up.
Achilles: Dido with Agamemnon
Odysseus(Ulysses): Also kind of iffy. He doesn't show up much in the Illiad, so i don't know if we get a really good idea of his character. A much better study is the Odessy (but its all about him so it would be).
Paris(Alexandrus): In G-rated language, he is a shallow, cowardly, womanizing, greedy, self- centered, immature....good for nothing, unintelligent, silly, silly man:)
Diomed: I think we'll keep him ;)
Ajaxes: Pretty cool as well
I can't think of any others at the moment.
A suggestion to David: take these awsome comments and put them in a book. Seriously.
As I am going through the children's Odessy, I am realizing waht kind of amazing person Odysseus is. I mean, really. After TWENTY YEARS, he still tries to get home and doesn't give up but perseveres. That is pretty amazing that he has that much determination, iron will, and fortitude to keep moving towards Ithaca, despite losing all his men and all the tragedies he endures, and to not give up!
And don't stop writing, David. Everyone else, I VANT TO HEAR SOME MORE COMMENTS!!
You need to "Diagram" either my paper about the birth of Western Civ, or a chapter even a key part of the Durant reading. Diagramming just means taking a paper, or essay, or chapter or excerpt and drawing the ideas out in module form kinda like we did in class: what leads to what, which leads to what, which is the foundation of what... etc... The main ideas of the essay or chapter ought to be understandable through this module. This is only our first attempt, so don't stress too much. Just try to do something like I did and I'll teach you more about it later.
Please read through the comments on this week's thread. THIS is what I'm talking about! This builds thinking skills, writing skills, communication skills, and it builds community and an inquisitive environment of learning. EVERYONE can participate. Your insights can be short or long, they can follow perfect grammatical rules or they can be written in an informal voice. But anyone who shares his/her epiphanies and ideas and connections in our community blog on a regular (daily, every other day) basis WILL have a better educational experience, and WILL begin to develop into better oral communicators and writers.
Keep it up for those who are already engaged.
Get going you young geniuses for those of you who have heretofore held back!
Wow! I know this has already been said, but this is awesome! I love how we can continue the discussions, ideas, and epiphanies with each other even after class is over. David, that's so cool you have so many ideas and thoughts. I am loving them! And Jeremy, That would be awesome if you could be live with us. I wish I was live in the World Lit with the rest of you guys to participate more better and easier.
I agree with Tyler. I was completely revolted at all the homosexuality. And not only that, but also that there were prostitutes everywhere. "Luxury grew and morals declined. Prostitutes were plentiful, and their patrons suffered hardly any reproof from public opinion." I didn't get why it was called The Golden Age since it was so immoral.
Later at the mention of Euripides' play, I thought it was odd that they threw Hector's son over the wall instead of another form of murder and then go to bring his body back for burial. Why that much trouble? Dramatic effect? Fear and power are real motivators. Power even causes fear sometimes. I just thought that was an interesting bit.
I don't get Philip, people liked him? "...he broke a promise with a light heart but was always ready to make another; he recognized no no morals for governments, and looked upon bribes and lies as humane substitutes for slaughter." Um....? "He began by seizing cities... and answered Athenian protests with compliments on Athenian literature and art." He flattered to get people to like him.
Now Plato.... A lot got marked and circled on his section. His obsession with Utopias were so twisted. The first paragraph on page 103 is really marked in my copy. Do you know how many commanding words are in that paragraph alone? "Shall, will, is to, should, are to be..." That's only a small bit of it. Plato's ideas for Utopias are Nazism. (Well maybe not at the time since there were no Nazi's technically yet...) But we all know how Hitler's plans worked out. Yeah, they were real paradise. But this ideal has absolutely no freedom of choice and no happiness involved. It felt like all you would be allowed to do is breathe, and even that feels limited. The whole section on Plato just felt like it was only on his sick obsession.
Aristotle felt pretty quiet for me. nothing leaped out. There was one spot that really hit me though. "All men are created unequal..." WHAT?! Men are created equal! Our actions change our equality.
Anyway, I'll finish now. I really can't wait for the colloquium tomorrow though :)
Even though Philip had a bad personality, you would have to admit that he had some really good leadership traits. Napolean had really good leadership traits, but over all he was not a good man. Same with Philip. He just was not a good man. I bet if he grew up in a more moral society, he would of been a very good leader in helping the world become a more better place, but alas, that did not happen. What do you think could of happened if he was a good moral leader?
I don't really have very much time to write, so here is a short one. The three lessons that I learned this week...
1. Diligence is key to succeeding at whatever you do
2. Using the process of tempering metal is truly the best metaphor when it comes to describing what life is like :)
3. I was somehow able to find the time, even on my busiest day when I literally have no free time, whenever someone really needed me...it was amazing and humbling. I now know where my priorities to be. :)-Layne Wixom, Social Leadership
So here’s a question I’ve been pondering about the Iliad: Why is it that the soldiers in the army rely so heavily on a few numbered men established as leaders? If Diomedes or Agamemnon are injured, their soldiers fall back, if they fight on, the soldiers fight on? What tendency is it that makes men do this?
I also loved this quote:
“Antilochus, you are young, but Jove and Neptune have loved you well and have made you an excellent horseman. I need not therefore say much by way of instruction. You are skillful at wheeling your horses round the post, but the horses themselves are very slow, and it is this that will, I fear, mar your chances. The other drivers know less than you do, but their horses are fleeter.”
It is a fact that the youthful are strong, faster, and more nimble than the old. And yet the old often have more experience and are far wiser. I read this quote, and the thought came to my mind, “the problem here is that Antilochus has the skill and the wisdom, but not the power, wheres the others have the power, but not the skill and wisdom” I think the same is often true of people in the world today. But what if we joined the two together? What if the youth went to their elders in a desire to learn? And what if, in return for their learning they served their elders for their physical needs etc? I think the moral of the story is that as one, we have great strengths. But we also have great weaknesses. But when we work together those weaknesses are countered by other people’s strengths and great progress can be made in the world.
I found another quote that I really like from the Iliad "be both a speaker of works and a doer of deeds." I like that it is something I can definitely work at. I often find myself giving advice but then going and doing something else, mostly to siblings. This is a quote by Churton Collins"To profit from good advice requires more wisdom than to give it". I agree!!
Hey Everyone! *WOW*! your guys are AMAZING! I can't believe how many comments there are. I wonder if moving to moodle instead of this will slow down our discussions, I hope not! :D
I have a question!? Agamemnon vs. Achilles
Who was right, who was wrong. Who had pride, and who was strong?
As I said in class, Greeks were all about HONOR. Warriors would sack great cities and bring back the spoils for HONOR. Warriors would, after killing another, risk his life simply to tear off the dead man's armor for himself and his HONOR
Achilles had been ridiculed in public by the Great Agamemnon, he had had his wife of the fair cheeks Brisies taken from him, he had been reduced from the top, to the epitome of despair. He had lost his honor, his reason to live, HIS LIFE! The only thing he had to hold on to was his promise that he wouldn't fight in the war any longer, breaking that promise would forfeit that last strand of honor left in him. He HAD to hold on to this promise and prove strong and firm in his words. When Agamemnon came to Achilles to apologize,offering back what had been taken away from him to come and fight, he was asking Achilles to let go, to relinquish that last bit of hope, honor, and virtue in keeping his word. How could Achilles go back on his word?
On the other hand, Agamemnon had recognized his mistake. He had been humbled by the death of his people that he cared for. People that Achilles accused Agamemnon for never loving. Agamemnon came to Achilles with a humble heart, hoping that the stubborn Achilles would realize Agamemnon's sincerity. Through Achilles's pride Agamemnon was not successful.
Once again. Who was right, who was wrong Who had pride, and who was strong?
hmmmmmmmmm..... I think the answer to that question is that neither wer right or wrong. In a book I read (called WWII and How It Affects You Today), the author stated that in old world wars, or any wars for that matter, there are rarely "good guys" or "bad guys". Winners write history. PLEASE, this is my opinion, i'm not trying to offend anyone or say the military is bad. I have the highest respect for the armed forces.
Dunno if that helps. And everyone, THANK YOU for writing. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ;)
Oh, would everyone mind putting down the titles of the books you reference? i am an AVID reader and would appreciate some new material (i think avid might not be the correct word, though. Maybe sick addiction?.....)
Yeah Tyler, I think if anyone lives in a more moral society they would be better. But he didn't. I think it was that (and I only know of him through this small page and a half of information so I will have to study him a little more,) he never seemed to WANT to change. He enjoyed war, drinking and was unfaithful. He had no problem with breaking his word. He did also have somewhat of a decent education. It didn't seem like he searched for more knowledge, instead he was happy continuing to conquer and fight. I mean, "For the sake of power and dominion he had an eye struck out, a shoulder broken an arm and a leg paralyzed" Does that not sound a little sick to you? He was power hungry and cared for nothing less really. I will definitely have to study him a bit more though. One page is not enough to get all the info on someone.
I think the same goes for Alexander, He could have been a good leader, had he been placed in a more moral society. He may have had generosity and affection, dreams, hopes and gallantry; but his immorality, pride and arrogance brought him down. Sadly, they were both placed in an immoral society though and didn't change.
Crystal and Tyler, Hey are you saying that my immorality, pride and arrogance brought me down?!? :) haha just kidding, and I think you have a great point there. I have a question for you guys. I'd say the world we live in today is pretty immoral, at least from a media standpoint. Do you think it's possible to become a leader in an immoral world, but still be moral? Will people follow you?...or not follow you becuase you don't conform to the world's standards?
And by the way everyone, last time I was on here a couple days ago there were 4ish comments...AND NOW THERE'S AT LEAST A BILLION!!! :) so everyone's awesome. The end.
nice conclusion, alexander. just out of curiosity, what were you doing awake at 5:51 am?! i like to read the times that everyone posted their comments to determine who is possibly crazy(i count myself as one :)but i dont know if that's my or your time, so let me know so that i can determine your sanity.
Dr groft, i accidentally erased my file for the diagram that you sent( the history blurb). Could you send it to me?
I have nothing interesting to say right now. Mebe later.....
and,(last time), to let everyone know what is going on a little bit in my life; my birthday is on sunday,(although i think ive already said that...) and i cant wait for the weekend so i can SLEEP :) i am also clogging,(kind of like tap) which i love but havent done in FOREVER, so trying to keep up with the pro class im in is very hard. but i will not give up, because i want to dance!
Hahaha! Alexander, I actually thought of you when I typed that... thought it was funny.
Um, those are good questions. I think It is most definitely possible to be a great and moral leader in an immoral world. Getting people to follow you I guess would depend on how immoral things are, but mainly your approach to leadership. How do you approach them to teach them?
lol! Megan! Happy birthday Sunday :D I was up at 5:30 this morning myself but I had no time to get online or I would have... :)
World Lit. comments: One of the many things I noticed in the Iliad is that the word wrath is a common theme. In fact the "wrath of Achilles" is the opening line of The Iliad and it ends with his (Achilles) wrath for/over the death of his dear friend and comrade, Patroclus. Achilles wrath, pride, and thirst for revenge devours his character and deems him an non-compassionate and unfeeling monster. After Patroclus' death all that Achilles wishes for is revenge on Hector. And, when Achilles finally succeeds in killing/destroying Hector his revenge for Patroclus is still not satisfied. He foully defiles and does and says all manner of unbelievable things. Things a said HERO would refrain from. Achilles believes he can find peace and pleasure in revenge but alas, the thing itself is pain, not pleasure. Revenge is sweet, sweeter than life itself-so say fools and so says Achilles.
Alexander I was thinking about your last comment and I think you can be a leader in an immoral world because there are always those who will support you for your morality. It would be hard to get very far in say politics or something like that because well the moral are always out numbered it seems. But you can get some where and you can be an influence for good and help people to want to be better.
World Lit. comments: Hector is amazing! A truly courageous and wise character. A great leader and friend. I love his words to his wife in book 6 "My own wife, do not take these things too bitterly to heart. No one can hurry me down to Hades before my time, but if a man's hour is come, be he brave or be he coward, there is no escape for him when he has once been born." and to tie that with his dieing words, "But let me not die without a huge effort, nor let me dishonorably die, but in the brave doing of some great deed let me go, that men yet to be may hear of what happened." I think all of us have the desire to make a difference in life. To become, to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, etc. I would say Hector accomplished his dieing words desire to, “not die without a huge effort, nor dishonorably die, but in the brave doing of some great deed let me go.” Hector was a true enricher, protector, example, and guide to the city of Troy.
World Lit. comments: Homer is an amazing author and poet. As Aristotle said he was the only poet who had found out "living words." An arrow is "impatient" to be on the wing, a weapon "thirsts" to drink the blood of the enemy, "the spear flew" and was not unsuccessful, and the like.
I was not ready for class to end I think we could descuse all day long no problem! I am excited to read Odyssey I think it will be interesting! I just wanted to say that I also think this class has some major futuer leaders in it, just thought I would say.
Hey I thought the outlining class was pretty dang awesome, I used to not like outlining but now I feel as if I have the confidence to do it, and that I'm better at it thanks to the class, I even use an outlining format when taking notes sometimes and it works GREAT!
Also since the class, in Heroes of History I have tried writing 5 or 6 key words of the paragraph beside it in the margin, and doing so not only helps me read the paragraph and the book better (because I have the mindset of "I need to find 5 key words to write down") and understand it more, but later if I want to recall what I was reading about I have only to look and the words I wrote and I remember everything about the paragraph in under 10 sec.! I also did that for an entire chapter instead of doing each and every paragraph, it doesn't get as detailed but it still works if you're trying to read quickly because class is in 15 minutes. Finding key words for every paragraph takes a little more time, but it's definitely worth it!
(See also Dr. Groft's comment on September 21, 2010 11:16 AM)
Quotes from Heroes of History (Andrew Blake): pg. 86 "Normally the philosophy of one age is the literature of the next: the ideas and issues that in one generation are fought out on the field of speculation or research provide in the succeeding generation the background of drama, fiction, and poetry." -Will Durant
pg. "Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy,... cities will never cease from ill, nor the human race." -Plato
Greetings fellow bloggians. Thanks to Andrew for his studying tip. Much Appreciated!
Class was pretty good today. I wish we would have been able to go more in depth with the Odessy. For me, there is so much i can learn from it. I want to get started! (I appreciate the wooting:)
Does anyone have any other thoughts on the self assesment? what are some of the benefits of writing everything out/dr grofts meathod of going about this?
Another comment on hector: Like what sierra said, hector is very courageous. but i want to touch on his relationship with his wife again. he is so tender and sweet with her, and he loves her so much, i get warm and fuzzy every time i think about it. wouldn't it be great if all guys were like that? respectful and sweet? i say this because i've know some real jerks, and it always hart when they weren't kind. i've also known guys who treated me like a princess, and the biggest thing they did for me? make me feel safe and protected.
so someday i want to marry a guy like hector. and don't anyone settle fo ranything less!
So Wednesday night I was reading Chapter VII of Locke's Second Treatise, in which he describes political society. He begins by explaining the first relationship of society, that of husband and wife. He then expands that to parent and child, as well as master and servant and captor and slave.
I realized how fundamental the family is to society. I'd been told that, and I believed on faith, but now I see how that is the first unit.
@Alexander: 'Tis very possible to be an moral leader in an immoral world. However, it might be harder, not only because of bad influences, but also because an immoral people can't accomplish a whole lot.
Iliad book seven, roughly four fifths of the way through (I have a different publication from the rest of you, same translation different publication, or I would give you a page number). I thought this was just gut wrenching.
Setting: This is right after Hector and Ajax fight. The armies have both retreated from the field back into their respective camps (or city). Everybody is tired and kind of sad because so many friends and comrades, on both sides, have died today. The Acheans feast and then have a war council to decide what their next course of action will be. They decide to call a cease fire for the purpose of gathering and giving a proper funeral to their dead comrades, after which they will build fortifications around their camp.
Interestingly the Trojans go directly into a council before they eat. I thought this was smart, get the important things done first, except that on closer inspection the Trojan council was "angry and full of discord" whereas the Achean council was peaceful. The battle had gone rather badly for the Trojans, so they had an added element of stress, but it is still interesting to note that the Acheans took the time to relax and calm themselves after the battle, while the Trojans did not. Anyway, at the Trojan council everybody is tense and "full of discord". This is the mood when "wise Antenor spoke". He suggests they give Helen, and all the treasure Paris plundered when he took her, back to the Acheans. Paris says: "Your words are not to my liking... I will not give up the woman; but the wealth... I will restore, and will add yet further of my own." Priam then tells everyone to go home and eat, in the morning Idaeus will go tell the Acheans and ask for a cease fire so they can care for the dead, after which they can continue fighting.
This is where I felt a wrench in the gut before I was just mad at Paris for refusing to give up Helen, but here... Well, Idaeus goes, and gives the message to the Acheans: Paris is willing to give the treasure back plus some, "but he will not give up the wedded wife of Menelaus, though the Trojans would have him do so."
There it is. Any decent leader would see that this is a golden opportunity. The Trojans don't exactly ask for peace, but offering to give back the treasure that started the war is as close to an invitation for peace talks as I can imagine. Idaeus even hints (perhaps unintentionally) that if they play it right, the Trojans will demand Paris give back Helen! Here the Acheans have been camped in siege, away from hearth home and wife, for NINE YEARS. They just fought a battle in which they lost many comrades and they are facing another battle with similar death’s tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. All it takes is one strong leader, one influential king, standing and making a case for peace.
There is a moment of silence as the Acheans decide how to react, will they accept peace? Are they big enough to drop their dreams of seeing Troy in ruins and accept the things they came to reclaim? At this pivotal moment Diomed speaks: "Let there be no taking, neither treasure nor yet Helen, for even a child may see that the doom of the Trojans is at hand." As simply as that the turning point has passed. The warriors applaud, and Agamemnon confirms the decision (funny how he only speaks after the will of the crowd is known following rather than leading). And yet, I cannot help but wonder, how many of these cheering men will never make it home? How many will die before Troy is razed, and even if they are among the living, how many friends will they have lost?
The next day the armies meet but there is no fighting, they agreed to allow each other the opportunity of honoring their dead. Both Trojan and Achean feel the terrible loss of their brothers in arms, but still they continue to their war.
There were a lot of quotes that I loved from the book, but here a couple of my favorites:
Pg. 101 "In history, as in newspapers, only the name and dates change; the events are always the same." This one just kinda stuck out to me, because all the time I hear about how history repeats its self, and how we need to study history to understand what is going to happen next, and there are instances where I can see parallels between now and the past.
Pg. 105 "The goal of conduct is happiness, but the secret of happiness is virtue, and the best virtue is intelligence." I totally agree with that. We strive to be happy, but we can't truly be happy if we don't have any education or virtue.
Andrew Smith said... So here’s a question I’ve been pondering about the Iliad: Why is it that the soldiers in the army rely so heavily on a few numbered men established as leaders? If Diomedes or Agamemnon are injured, their soldiers fall back, if they fight on, the soldiers fight on? What tendency is it that makes men do this?
Sources of Courage
(David Says in answer) I think it is partly because when in dire straights the leaders are more proactive and the men find cause to fight harder than they thought they could otherwise. But also a good leader heading the fight gives men confidence. The direction and wisdom of the leader helps the men to know that their efforts and risks are heading them in the right direction and not being done in vain. And we see that when these leaders are absent, that confidence is also absent, and the men waver, fight poorly and even retreat or surrender.
An example of this in the book is when Agamemnon gets wounded and ends up leaving the fight, whereupon Hector encourages his men by saying, “...be men, my friends and acquit yourselves in battle bravely; their best man has left them...” On certain occasions while playing church basketball I’ve noticed this same tendancy. When our star player and leader isn’t one of the guys out on the court I can sense more hesitancy in what I’m doing because I question wether I’m making the right moves or using the right plays and what not; whereas when he’s out there he takes command of the situation and I feel completely confident that I‘m doing what needs to be done. So in the end, I’d say that many a time we probably do know what to do, we just lack the courage and support to act. A good leader brings this courage to the surface, but I think that if we dig deep enough, we all can find the courage within ourselves to act and do great things.
We can also draw that leaders and great people, at times, need help too. Of course they’re there to lead but we should not expect them to be free problems and hardships like the rest of us. When Ulysses is being overwhelmed by the Trojans after Diomed is wounded, and the tide turns against Ajax who has come to his aid, we see that these great men need help. The one man to notice this was Eurypylus, and he springs to his defense. By this I think that Homer is showing us that we should be more aware of others needs, and also that just because we look up to someone and draw strength from them doesn’t mean they are living dandily and need no support or can’t possibly benefit from what we have to offer. I think in our everyday lives we can aid and assist them by offering kind or cherry words, thanking them for their example or service, help them out, or just being friendly; because like all people, they aren’t perfect and need help and support too.
World Lit: What’s Most Important-Sparked from Layne (Thanks)
Upon his return from inquiring about the wounded Machaon, Patroclus encountered Eurypylus limping along from an arrow wound in his thigh. Eurypylus asks for assistance in removing the arrow head and dressing the wound, and Patroclus’ reply reminded me of what Layne posted about finding time to help others even when you are way too busy. He replied "Hero Eurypylus," replied the brave son of Menoetius, "how may these things be? What can I do? I am on my way to bear a message to noble Achilles from Nestor of Gerene, bulwark of the Achaeans, but even so I will not be unmindful to your distress." And although I admit this isn’t an excellent example of this, (just because Patroclus might have done so out of pity), it just sparked my memory about what Layne said. As recent experience has taught me, we do need to sometimes sacrifice time and realize that although we are busy and have many priorities in our lives, helping others is by far more important than attending to those things, (even school sometimes). For isn’t school a waste if we do not apply our learning and change ourselves by reflecting it in our actions? I believe that in most cases, it is important to put our busy lives on hold when someone asks for help. By doing so we show those we help that they are more important to us than going shopping, having fun, or even getting an assignment done. We also come to realize by experience what is most important in life. To Love One Another.
Jeremy: does it all seem kind of pointless after that? the whole war seemed pointless,honestly, 'cause i dont see why people wont just talk about things insteadof killing eachother. another time i think that might have been a good opportunity to bargain would have been when priam came to ransom hectors body. priam was in the camp and he didn't try and strike a deal. wasn't anyone tired of all the fighting? i only read about three days worth or so of fighting and i was tired of it!
I love the first quote, Kelsea. that is a great way to say that history repeats itself.
Does anyone need a partner? I didn't get the chance to ask on friday.
Nate, I was actually going to comment on the same thing you said. I thought it was odd how everything felt like it paused for Achilles' rage over Patroclus' death. It like everything was forgotten to allow Achilles to go all out in his rage. And then after he has taken care of Patroclus, he gets some games going... "OK, I've thrown my fit, everything is taken care of. ...Lets play some games!" Didn't make sense. Maybe I just don't quite understand their culture.
Can't wait to go into the Odyssey in depth! Sometimes, in the book however, it seems to get a little depressing as Odysseus goes though what seems to be a never ending string of misfortunes.
OK, my name is Aurora Fackrell, and I'm in the Social Leadership Class. :) For my class i read Three Cups of Tea, and I wanted to say how amazing it is that one person, who seems totally average, can completely change so many peoples lives. In the beginning, when he starts building his first school, there are so many things that get in the way, and he spends over 3 years on it, but after that he starts cranking out schools like nobody's business!
He had such a strong mission and he really excelled and really changed the lives of hundreds of people. It is so amazing to me, and it makes me want to be a better person. :)
I'm Gabe Walker from Social Leadership and I guess all i have to say is that the book three cups of tea realy opened my eyes to the poverty and culture of the middle east and how the really only cause for war is lack of education. This why in a sense all humans seek knowledge, in that without it we are nothing
My name is michael I'm in the world history class.Well I have been l have been lost and confused and overwhelmed by this class. Now I have noticed that this class is all about reading telling people what I read and learned.200 years after the new world was founded called the united states of america they needed to restore their beliefs and laws and order.their are two types of order the order of the soul and the order of society.Now here is example when their is no order the fall of rome. Now rome was a very large empire but the emperor had a big problem a whole bunch of people in other words called the wandering tribes form other parts of the world wanted to come to rome and do every thing that rome people do but the emperor would not let them so they became barbarions called celts and in these celts were multiple tribes call attila and the huns,goths,visigoths and ostrogoths.Were attacking the rome borders.So the emperor sent his armies to protect the border but their werent enough soldiers to protect the borders. Now if that wasn't the problem their was also a great food shortage in some places and their was also a terrible sickness called the plague.Many of the emperors that inherited the job of ruling rome were not very good at it.One of the emperors went mad and tried to make his horse a goverment offical. Finally an emperor called Diocletian came to throne he decided that rome is to big for ruler so he divided into to parts he kept west rome and east rome to person named Maximilian. Diocletian hoped that would be easier to protect rome now that is was smaller but he was wrong 200 years after Diocletians death western rome was conqured by the barbarions and they burned rome. Now point of order is that the emperor got swallowed up by pride and lost the things that money cant buy family, friends the spirit.
My name is Brooklyn Trotter I am in the World literature class. And I started reading The Iliad by Homer and I was reading about Achilles and how mad he is at Agamemnon. Because Agamemnon has to give back his meed of honor so he thinks that he can take Achilles meed of honor, well Achilles is not too happy about that. And he gets so mad he wants to kill him but his heart was divided in counsel wither to kill him "or to assuage (cause to be more favorable or inclined) his anger and curb his soul." I really like how he says well maybe I should be a little more inclined maybe I should deal with this in a better way. I think we could all curb our souls in one way or another.
ReplyDeleteI also found out that Hecatomb means an offering of an 100 oxen!!!
Looks like Brooklyn commented two weeks ago on this post. That's okay.
ReplyDeleteHey, I really liked many of the posts from last week. I love when you guys are asking questions and and sharing cool insights, epiphanies and connections you made. KEEP IT UP!!! : )
I look forward to some really cool insights over the next week.
Dr. Groft
Hey so in the outlining class, i learned a fantastic new skill! Outlining is something i've never paid much attention too, but now i know that it is pretty important. I'm excited to practice it!
ReplyDeleteI can NOT wait to start doing some in-depth outlining! I've missed it over the summer! Anyways, I'm loving learning! Everything is going great! :)
ReplyDeleteClass was very interesting and fun today. Unlike Jordan, I am a little leery about doing outlining since I have never done it before. I also read out of the Illiad about the greif of Achilles over his friend Patroclus' death. And then I got to thinking what wouold it be like if I had a friend that I loved as dearly as Achilles loved Patroclus and he died. And how would I feel. Then I thought maybe there was such a attachment because they were sodiers. I have read how during a war, some soldiers form a very strong bond so maybe that's the way Achilles and Patroclus were.
ReplyDeleteso, I found this interesting.
ReplyDeleteI have heard about the Iliad before now I just never read it an all I heard about was the gods all fighting and Achilles and hector and Helena and paris now that I am reading it I am wondering why did I not hear about other main characters like: Diomed, Agamemnon, Nestor and all of the other main characters?
some of the other "main characters" like paris and helena are only in like two pages of the book!
So here is a little epiphany i had while reading the Iliad the other day.. :)
ReplyDeleteIn The Iliad I learned an important lesson about distractions. They are sometimes okay, but usually bad. In life, if we want to be productive, setting goals is a must. But because we live in the world, there are distractions that can keep us from reaching our goal if we pay too much attention to them. An example of a man not heeding distractions is found in Hector. Hector was a Trojan warrior who was among the best fighters their army had. He left the battle at one point to go into the city so he could make sacrifices to a goddess. The business of sacrificing was very important to them and sometimes vital to their success in battle. As he is going to and fro about the city, his mother comes to him. She offers him rest saying, “Wait till I can bring you wine that you may make offering to Jove and to the other immortals, and may then drink and be refreshed. Wine gives a man fresh strength when he is wearied as you now are with fighting on behalf of your people.” Hector answered her, “Honoured mother, bring no wine, lest…I forget my strength.” He knew he couldn’t let himself get distracted because that might make him lose sight of his goal, to make sacrifices. He keeps walking and is met by his friend, who tells him to come and rest. He again refuses, determined to stick to his goal. A third time his wife bids him to sit with her for a bit and rest. A third time he says “I cannot do so”. He knew his commitments and he stuck to them. There are always distractions in our life as well and some of them may be good things, but they will still keep us from reaching our goals. We need to make sure our goals are in line with what we want and then stop for nothing till we have reached them.
I love it!, and I totally agree Alexander!
ReplyDeleteI am in the world lit. class and Wednesday we were talking about Utopia a little bit and it made me start thinking and this is what happened: Is a Utopia possible? Can we have a perfect state in social, political, and moral aspects? First let’s consider some things. In 3 Ne. 12:48 (Matt. 5:48) it says: “Therefore I would that ye should be perfect even as I , or your Father who is in Heaven is perfect.” So God wants us to be perfect. Here is something else to look at in D&C 88:35 it says: “that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.” So laws have the power to preserve, perfect, and sanctify us. So to get a little deeper what laws create a Utopia. In Amendment one to the constitution it says: “congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press, or the tight of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.” All that sounds pretty good to me but would it create a utopia. I think not and this is why Moral perfection is one of the aspects in an utopian society. A person’s knowledge about right and wrong and the adjoining principles have a lot to do with religion. And if we are not allowed to make laws concerning religion how then can we reach that moral perfection. But lets say we do make laws and lay out what is right and what is wrong. And then we enforce them taking away moral freedom. And make every one conform to the moral, political and social standards we set. And then this Utopia turns into a dystopia where everything is oppressive and controlled. Dues any of this sound familiar Satan had a plan much like this where there would be no moral freedom No Agency. Yes we would be perfect but we would not learn we would not progress. So if you where to ask me of a Utopia is possible I would say no, a dystopia is possible maybe but not to be desired in any way. So those of us who desire peace and perfection will simply have to wait till Christ rules. And in the meantime try to prefect our selves though Christ. By Brooklyn Trotter
ReplyDeleteThoughts on a peace of the Iliad: "For hatefull to me even as the gates of hell is he that hideth one thing in his heart and uttereth another". I think we really should try to be more honest in what we say. Because the more we say things that are not in your hearts the more we become two faced we come away farther and farther from who we really are and we end up with two extremes. If we say every thing honestly we may be reviled but at least we will be able to respect ourselves.
ReplyDeleteMegan World Lit, comments
ReplyDeleteCouple of interesting things. The style of war they had was different and similar in some ways to modern warfare. Similarites are the capture and possesion of equipment, (though the Greeks would take armor that was damaged...?).
The differences that i noticed are that the Greeks ate very well, while modern military dont eat well at all. They also had squires running around, hauling away armor, carrying weapons and caring for horses. Nowadays, sodiers have to carry their won equpment.
When Patroclus sees the Greeks being defeated at the ships, he goes to Achilles and asks permission to go fight, which Achilles grants to him and all his other men. Its interesting that nothing could soften Achilles except the supplication and tears of his dear friend. Not Agamemnon or the deaths of his fellow countrymen could convince him to help. But when Patroclus came to him and requested permission to fight, Achilles gave it. Its thought provoking; what kind of influence do we have on our friends (and them on us)?
Lit COmments
ReplyDeletei was wondering the same thing Nathan. Maybe its because of all the abridging thats gone on over the years. they have to tell the story of the illiad in less detail, so they take the main story line and the people in that story line and write it out as a shortened version of the illiad. the people like diomed get lost because they are details and dont help carry the main plot line along.
Brooklyn,
ReplyDeleteYou said in your post that a Utopia was impossible (at least on this side of the second coming). With all respect, I completely disagree!
I don't want to get into a doctrinal battle here as this isn't really the place but if you look up Matthew 5:48 and read the JST in the footnotes, and then go to 1 Nephi 3:7 a case can be made doctrinally.
However I disagree on more than doctrinal grounds.
You say that only a Dystopia is possible because the only way to get people to work together on the level of a Utopia is to force them. I vehemently disagree! People can change, people can do the right thing because it is the right thing and people can live as God would have us live. It IS possible. I could cite scriptures on these subjects but I have already said that I don't want to do that here, so instead I will simply say this: The basic nature of mankind is good. We are sons and daughters of God, Brothers and Sisters to the Savior, we have been given bodies, and the natural man tempts us, but our basic nature is the same as that of he in whose image we were made and he is good. We are capable of so much good, such extraordinary things can come from our willingness to do and be good, that it exceeds imagination. But if we don't believe, really truly BELIEVE, that We/I/You and everyone around us is able to achieve those things then we won't. I won't You won't and they won't. Without belief in the basic goodness of people we will never get there. Because we can't so we won't.
On Sep 20, 2010, at 1:11 PM, Trevor Edmond wrote:
ReplyDeleteDr. Groft,
Are we suppose to outline all our reading like we discused today?
Dr. Groft's Response:
Trevor,
At this point I have decided not to REQUIRE that you outline like we learned today; however, you would be wise to do it anyway.
Here's the thing. We have papers that need to be written, tests that need to be taken, and study guides that need to be written and kept on an almost daily basis. Those who keep good study guides, do better on their tests, learn more and frankly have more fun learning. Remember, that study guides are written by you. They are simply a compilation of annotations, comments regarding quotes or ideas from books, outlines, observations, etc... When I was a student, I succeeded by keeping these on everything I read. And like Mr. Ure said, it wasn't that complicated. I tried to write down a few key observations and the main ideas from each page or chapter I read. Then, when I re-read my study guide prior to my tests, I remembered MUCH more than I thought I would. It was like my few comments reminded me of the whole thing, but in way less time than reading the books again.
Hope that helps.
Dr. Groft
(I am going to post this question and response to our blog.)
By the way...
ReplyDeleteGreat epiphanies, questions and discussions going on. Continue posting and reading each others' posts and not only will your grades go up, but more importantly, your educational experience will be richer, and your ability to communicate and lead will be enhanced!
Dr. Groft
"When we increase literacy, we substantially reduce tensions." Three Cups of Tea (pg.228)
ReplyDeleteWhen I read things, I typically put myself in the book or relate the book to me in someway so it becomes part of me, not just words on a page. This particular statement really jumped out because when I related the statement to me…it was exactly what I needed to learn.
I am literate ( as are all of you, due to the fact that you are reading this),so I did not think that I needed to learn how to read. Yes, people all around the world need to have the blessing of Jane Austin, but that does not teach me something relevant for right now, in this moment. That teaches me a whole other set of lessons, they could come in multiple volumes there are so many, but those are lessons that pertain to the future and not right now, which is what I needed. So I began to think of illiteracy in another light…and then bam! I have a lesson that pertains to this moment, right now.
Judgment, anger, hurt, confusion; these are all byproducts that we get when we are illiterate of something (a person, what something is, ourselves, a situation, etc.) How often I am annoyed with someone or think that they are being rude when there is usually a reason behind that we do not understand. Just last week I thought my friend was being really short and rude with another friend so I was annoyed with her. The next day she called me really needing to talk; turns out that she is dealing with some ridiculously hard things that no one should ever have to go through. I was just illiterate as to what she was going through.
So I have decided to take the time to understand and comprehend things because when we do that …”we substantially reduce tensions”… :)
I did not know exactly what to say, but I knew I wanted to post something so here goes. I thought that the outlining class was very helpful, while I already knew how to outline I felt that going over it again was very helpful. I feel like it is somewhat easier to outline now that we are going over it. I had also never outlined by picking only a few words out of the text and I found that very helpful when I go back to review my notes.
ReplyDeleteThank You Layne I love your comment (I'm not in your class by the way I'm in lit and history, but I still love it).
ReplyDeleteJeremy, History Free Flow assignment
ReplyDeleteHey, I'm Jeremy, I am in both the World Literature and the World History recorded classes. Please bear with me as I'm a couple classes (and all of the blog assignments) behind. I should be caught up by the end of the week but for now Dr. Groft told me to go ahead and post old assignments here in the current thread.
This is for World History it's my (very late) thoughts on me as a root.
Why do I need to be a leader/judge/wise person?
There are several answers to this question. I will examine each of them separately.
1. I want to be a leader - I have wanted to change the world for as long as I can remember. One of my childhood dreams was to be an inventor or scientist to rival well known names like Thomas Edison, and Isaac Newton. I have hoped to make discoveries that are studied by later generations much as we study the works of Luis Pasteur or Marie Curie. As I got older I expanded my role models to include people like Joan of Arc, Ghandi, and other great leaders of their caliber. Also about 6 years ago I chose my ultimate model, and began striving to follow my savior Jesus Christ. Ultimately I want to be a leader because these (and many, many others, some fictional some living today) have inspired me. I want to leave the world better for my having lived in it and leadership is the only way to do that.
2. I believe that we as human beings have a duty from God to be leaders, each in our own way. Whatever path we take in our life we should be trying to inspire and uplift those who are watching us. Whether that is our family and friends, the fans of the books that we write, clients from work, listeners on our radio show, our students, our coworkers, or the nation that we are attempting to lead; they should see in us examples of charity, mercy, love, determination, justice, hard work, or to put it shortly they should see in us examples of leadership. I want to live up to this God-given responsibility, so I have much to learn.
3. I don't want wonderful teachers, and inspiring mentors like Dr. Groft to have worked in vain do I? No, so I’ll have to become a wise old root as people just keep on handing me tools and stealing my excuses.
Hey, I was just reading in "Heroes of History" for World History and had this thought. I was reading about Amenhotep IV(Ikhanton) and how he changed the religion of the people and forced them to worship his way. I think that people should choose be able to choose what they beleive and how to worship. When we were talking about all those religions on Monday I was just thinking about how cool it is to be free to choose what religion I want to beleive. Anyway, the classes are great and I'm learning alot.
ReplyDeleteToday I was reading in the Illiad about how the gods started attaking one another after Achilles joined the battle and I was surprised how they were worried about Achilles overturning fate and sacking the city Illus before he died. If fate was an important thing, than how could one overturn it? My impression was that fate was set in stone, or the greeks thought that. How could one overturn fate anyway?
ReplyDeleteWell I'm not having any great epiphany or anything right now, when I have those I tend to have a bad habit of forgetting to write them down. Working on that. But I wanted to post something up here. I am reading the Iliad some tonight and find myself kind of getting deeper into it and enjoying it a little more. I like the book on Hector, book 6. I know that was kind of far back, but I really liked it. Even though the half of it feels like it's descriptions of EVERYTHING, I don't quite understand the layout of the battle, for example when Hector is headed back to Troy to tell the women to pray to Athena, he stops when Diomedes confronts him and gives half his life history... Where are they that he can just stop for a chat? How far from the city are they?? The layout is the one thing I have a hard time getting but half the Iliad feels like a description on everything else.
ReplyDeleteWow, I just read all the previous posts and you guys are way amazing, so keep up the great thoughts cuz I'm learning a lot from you. Oh and I also wanted to let all of you know that I'm copying and pasting the really cooling things that you guys write to my Study Guide just cuz its so good, so thanks, I'm learning a lot. But here's some thoughts I had...(I'll try and share more in class tomorrow)
ReplyDeleteWell as I was reading and examining each character I decided to start noting which characters give respect to the gods. It shows which characters are humble enough to acknowledge a greater power than themselves, although many of them are great, as well as other things. Eventually I started noting which ones mention or refer to the gods and their power/influence, which pray to the gods, give sacrifices, obey and thank the gods as well. It tells a lot about the character of the person, wether they are humble, obedient, greedy, wise and such. So far Hector and Diomed are the two most "god friendly" characters.
Oh I had another thought about World History.
ReplyDeleteI was reading about the Israelites and their bondage in Egypt and I got to thinking about why they could have become so after living their for 400 years and I had an idea. In chapter 4 it talks about the pharaohs and how Ikhnaton (ruled from 1361-1352 B.C.) got rid of polytheism and instituted monotheism, and how all the corrupt governing class of priests hated that because it took their power away. So the different regions under Egypt broke up because of discontent and after Ikhnaton died, they were all separated. Well the different regions naturally reverted back their former beliefs of the gods because the priests wanted all the power and the ruled class were uneducated and dumbed down into submission by the priests, and during the reign of Ramses II (from 1292=1225 B.C.) Egypt was once again reunited. Okay so lets pause there, the Israelites came to Egypt around 1650 B.C. and after about 400 years became Egypt's slaves, or around 1250 B.C. which is during Ramses II rule. So I think, and you can compare this to other times in history(like Hitler and the Jews (haha the Jews again, poor Jews)), that Ramses II made the Israelites scape goats to be commonly hated among the Egyptians because they believed in One God, and their whole nation had just gone through a major rebellion and discontent because of such forced belief by Ikhnaton. And plus, now they had a massive work force for them to lord over so they were fine with it. Its interesting, if what I have said is the case, to note the many times in history where a group is made a scapegoat and then dehumanized and treated terribly so that leaders can command the passions of the masses and reap ultimate control and power.
Oh and I must correct my self if I am wrong, because I didn't check, but I'm not sure if the Israelites still believed in the one God at the point they were taken into bondage or not, perhaps they had forgotten God and adopted the Egyptian traditions (or at least some of them) and were now being punished for it. Either way, I think they were made the scapegoat for some reason.
Jaremy,
ReplyDeleteWell I have an argument to what you are saying but then I started thinking maybe you are right (mostly anyway haha). I still believe that you can’t have a utopia on this earth without Christ as our king . And I am more than willing to continue this conversation/debate eltsware. Bmt.school@gmail.com . I do think God expects us to try our hardest to be perfect morally, but do most of us really try to be perfect socially, and politically. It takes everything to be perfect and you have to want it bad, and if there are people who don’t want it enough to put forth some real effort well that really messes up our Utopia. Within our self’s and possibly our families we can do our best to reach a utopia but other than that… well I will leave that up to you. (:
Brooklyn,
ReplyDeleteAs far as striving to be perfect morally vs socially/politically... Isn't all the same? It would seem to me that if you were perfectly moral, that would take care of your social interactions too wouldn't it?
Also, it is my belief that by thinking 'There are always people who won't do the work to get along with us.' not only do you ensure that there WILL be those people "messing up our Utopia" but, you kind of dehumanize them which might be slightly counterproductive.
Ultimately I think you have a point according to practical wisdom but, personally, I think practicality is highly overrated and in many instances does more harm than ever it could make up for. I'm willing to agree to disagree, but I couldn't just let your first comment go unchallenged because I have very strong opinions that it disagrees with.
Final note: I wasn't saying this is a bad place to debate this as a concept, I just didn't want to get into a bible bashing battle with you, especially not here in a class that isn't connected to the church, so I didn't try to prove my point scripturally. (when is that ever productive anyway?)
Tyler,
ReplyDeleteGood point that's interesting to think about.
I think it goes back to the fact that the Greek deities are not omniscient (panicking that something might upset their plans implies that they didn't see it coming), or omnipotent (they are far more powerful than man but the instance of Diomed actually fighting with them shows they are not all powerful). They are more like super-powerful human beings that have set themselves up as deities than actual deities themselves, and as such their decrees of fate could, conceivably, go wrong (though it seems as if they have enough power that they should be able to make things go there way).
That's kind of how I see it anyway, thanks for the cool thought.
Andrew Blake from World History
ReplyDeleteSolon, the archon of Athens seems like a pretty good leader who is concerned for the people's welfare, and a good moral man. And also Cleisthenes, he was the same kind of man and governmental leader.
p.s. Is there a way to comment directly on someone else's comment?
If fate was a god, and she would have power to decree the fate of humans and gods alike, wouldnt in esscence make her more powerful than the other gods because she can determine their fate? and thanks jeremy for the answer,but the gods were more powerful than man, than can't they decree what man will do since they are less powerful?
ReplyDeleteHey guys! So I know I didn't say anything in class today so I though I might throw one of my thoughts on the Iliad out there. Okay so here is the quote. "But the heart of Achilles was set on meeting Hector son of Priam, for it was with his blood that he longed above all things else to glut the stubborn lord of battle." I thought this was interesting just because it shows what kind of monster Achilles had turned into because he gave into his hate and revenge.
ReplyDeleteJeremy World History
ReplyDeleteIn last Friday's class, many of you were defending Achilles (sort of). I couldn't believe my ears!! You have to remember Agamemnon did NOT take his wife. She was a concubine, a prize or trophy, who had only to purposes. One, a source of "Honor" similar the scalps an American Indian would take. Two, an outlet for Achilles lustful desires. In refusing to accept a return of his girl, Achilles himself shows that he was just mad. If any of you have younger siblings you should recognize the actions of Agamemnon and Achilles. Squabbles like this happen almost every time 3 year olds get together to play.
Here is how I see this:
Agamemnon sees that he cannot keep his prize, NOT because then all of the Acheans will die, but because if he tries to keep her they are liable to tear him limb from limb and give her back themselves. In other words he sees he can't win the argument so he throws a mini tantrum to try and show that he is still the boss even if he didn't get his way this time.
Achilles, calls him out on it. He says come on now Agamemnon be reasonable... show sense... get along... This was actually moderately brave trying to stand up for the rights of himself and his comrades when the king is mad, but at the same time you know he wouldn't be taking it any better if his situation were reversed with Agamemnon's. Agamemnon refuses to be reasoned with and since Achilles was the one to stand up and single himself out, of course Agamemnon decides to take his girl.
(Basic child psychology really, Agamemnon feels picked on so he wants to make someone else suffer for his suffering, Achilles tries to make him see reason and in doing so singles himself out. Agamemnon vents his unhappiness on Achilles and feels better in a mean way.)
This is the opportunity for Achilles to show that he is not as big a baby as Agamemnon. It smarts to get his favorite prize taken but if he had manned up and ignored it, then Agamemnon gets to vent AND feel he is in control (both important if he is to be pacified), Chryse gets his daughter back thus taking care of the original problem, and the chain of suffering would end with Achilles. But Achilles doesn't do that. He feels just as victimized as Agamemnon, more even, so, since he doesn't have the power to just vent immediately like the king does, he throws a sulky fit and refuses to fight instead. Thus carrying the stupid, sulky, two year old fight out of the arena in which nothing more than someones pride can be hurt, and into the real world were men can, and do, die for it.
In the end, the ENTIRE episode was because two grown men, KINGS EVEN, never learned what every mother tries to teach every two year old: The Entire universe does Not revolve around YOU!
Tyler,
ReplyDeleteNo, they can't decree what men will do. If you notice all they ever do is influence the men. When they want someone to do something they either go tell them to do it, or try and persuade them to do it. It's not that the men can't deny the will of the deities, they just choose not too. It would be similar to someone having a gun to your head, they can tell you to do something and you can choose not to do it, but then you have to deal with the consequences which just might be a bullet in your brain.
The Greek Deities aren't really divine, the only characteristic of divinity they have is Immortality. But they are powerful, and too often the people in these stories choose to do what the Deities tell them, rather than what is right, simply because the Deities have bigger sticks.
During World History class, I had an intersting epiphany when we were talking about the greeks and how reason or logic was put above the revaltion or what the god(s) said. So hear it goes.
ReplyDeleteWe can not rely on reason alone, nor can we rely on revaltion alone. We must use both with wisdom and treat them as equal partners. Are life becomes out of balance if we put one above the other. Some might argue that this is sacreligious because religion should be the most important thingin our lives. I agree with that, but if we did not think highly of reason, what would we be? Mere animals and than what good would religion be? We would have no use for it since we would be animals. So I repeat that reason and revalation should be held as equal partners because reason is what made us to want and need revalation.
For example; with my reasoning powers, I can decide that I have little knowledge about the Universe and since it has so many perfect laws and it has such perfect order, than there must be a higher being than man that knows more. so I ask that higher being for revalation. I guess I am also saying that reason should be used first and than revaltion, but both are equal partners.
Jeremy, World Literature
ReplyDeleteSomething I noticed in the Iliad, when Hector and Ajax have their duel and neither of them die before nightfall. Two of the deities (in the form of heralds) come and tell them to call off the duel. Ajax immediately demands that Hector accept this before he will, in essence admitting that Ajax got the better of him (which he did). I don't know about anyone else but for me, that would be a hard thing to do. Here Hector is the best of the Trojans, he was told by the Minerva (through his brother) to enter this duel, and he goes into the duel with the type of bravado that can be hard to swallow when you lose. All of this is only made worse by the fact that he did get the worst of the encounter and thus should be feeling a little embarrassed. But despite all this Hector immediately acquiesced, he agrees to call off the fight because of nightfall, and then goes on to complement Ajax on his strength and prowess and suggest an exchange of gifts! Talk about a gracious loser.
I think the strength of character exhibited here is especially extraordinary in lieu of the behavior shown repeatedly by the leaders of the Acheans and most especially Achilles, what a contrast!
i thought our first social leadership class was amazing!! i especially loved the talk about honor. When i said " we honor the president because of the position he holds, not because of the person he is," i like what Dr Groft said how "respect" is a better word, and i agree! Him, i and im sure alot of other people will never "honor" the president.
ReplyDeletei am in Us History, and im reading "Common Sense", by Thomas Paine... and it makes so much sense haha! i never really got the concept that these people are the reason that we are free! i mean, im told that all the time, but to think about what they REALLY did for us brings tears to my eyes!
ReplyDeleteim proud to say im an American!:)
general comments
ReplyDeletewow! u guys are seriously blowing me away. these comments are things i would have never thought about on my own, so thanks for sharing!
one thing i want to comment on is(of course) the illiad. what jeremy said really made me
think (a lot of what he says does that...look forward to seeing u in class!)
there are some very humble men who are trying to do the right thing here. hector is only trying to protect his family and his countrymen because paris is mental and has a brain the size of a pea and got everyone into this mess in the first place.
diomed is trying to protect others as well. its sad to think that they go to such trouble for something so simple.
its interesting to find that you have such men on both sides of the conflict. u also have men like paris and agamemnon and achilles on both sides. so who are the good guys and who are the bad guys?
the characters in this book, homer has made them very human. everyman that dies, we get told something about him. the same men are doing the same things as the enemy. so why do they feel the need to take eachother out? if you put them all in a dark room, could you tell who was who? could who tell an acheaans voice from a trojans? would you try and kill your enemies at the risk of killing your friends?
maybe thats how we need to look at some things. blind ourselves a little bit so that we can truly see people as they are.
Jeremy, World Literature
ReplyDeleteThanks Megan, I'm sorry to say I'm not in the live class. I get to watch, and be illuminated by, you guys though, which makes me happy.
The Iliad is truly a tragedy isn't it? I just want to start telling the characters all the ways they can get out of the war, but most of them don't want to get out of it do they? The Acheans see honor in the fight, and they don't want to leave without sacking Troy. And the Trojans... I don't know what to say about the Trojans. I guess it's a clan thing and a pride thing. They refuse to just see that all they had to do was hand over Helen and Paris when the Acheans first came. And now they don't want to admit defeat after the Acheans have caused them so much trouble, not to mention razing their outlying villages. But it all feels so senseless.
Well here's what I wanted to share in Lit Class but didn't get a chance to.
ReplyDeleteHector the Great
Hector is incredible. I’m sure we’re all aware of that, but I just wanted to note his last encounter with his wife. His love for her is so pure, and knowing that he would probably never see her again, leaves her with words of comfort, and as I would like to point out much wisdom.
After holding his son and giving him his last blessing that he would be even better than himself “...he laid the child again in the arms of his wife, who took him to her own soft bosom, smiling through her tears. As her husband watched her his heart yearned towards her and he caressed her fondly, saying, "My own wife, do not take these things too bitterly to heart. No one can hurry me down to Hades before my time, but if a man's hour is come, be he brave or be he coward, there is no escape for him when he has once been born. Go, then, within the house, and busy yourself with your daily duties, your loom, your distaff, and the ordering of your servants...”
So we see that he comforts her and basically tells her that what happens, happens and the only thing we can do about it is to make the best of it, even in the wake of death as was his case. How true that is. We must remember that by our good choices we can avoid many of the bad things in life, however bad things will still come, and when they do, when things happen to us beyond our control, we must simply remember to make the best of it.
That was my epiphany, but as a side note, tribute to Hector, and to finish the quote, he adds, “...for war is man's matter, and mine above all others of them that have been born in Ilius." And that just stands as a testament that he was a man who knew his duty and did all in his power to carry it out, even to his death. What an amazing example.
Oh and I also love the rebuke that Hector gives to Paris. He first acknowledges the good things about him, then rebukes him, and then encourages him to be proactive and go out and right the wrong he has done, and offers his help and support in doing so.
"My good brother," answered Hector, you fight bravely, and no man
with any justice can make light of your doings in battle. But you
are careless and wilfully remiss. It grieves me to the heart to hear
the ill that the Trojans speak about you, for they have suffered much
on your account. Let us be going, and we will make things right hereafter, should Jove vouchsafe us to set the cup of our deliverance before ever-living gods of heaven in our own homes, when we have chased the Achaeans from Troy."
That is the way to rebuke someone, it actually has an affect and sets the person in the right direction to change and fixing the thing they did wrong. He’s just awesome.
And since that was too big here's part II
ReplyDeleteNestor vs. Hector
Its interesting to note that Nestor, the great orator of the Acheans, rebukes his men in order to inspire them and do what he wants them to. Its his leadership style. He talks of himself and the great things others have done and then asks why then cannot they do the same. He almost gets them to feeling shameful and not good enough, and that they are expected to do what he bids them. Its his way of leadership, yet he never expresses to them any appreciation for the good things they do and they always feel less than him and that they are failures. So his leadership gets things done, but does not inspire them or allow them to do great things of their own accord. I would say that it isn’t the best.
Hector’s leadership however, is filled with love for those he leads. It seems to me that he treats his men as equals. He accepts their faults and tries to help them to overcome them, and he also acknowledges their good things and leads by example with courage and might. And because of this his men are much more apt to obey him and follow him because they want to and not because they are being persuaded to or feel ashamed to like Nestor. (The Rebuke Hector gives to Paris above is one such example of Hector's greatness)
But anyways the fruits of each of their leadership is pointed out in book 8 when Hector is driving the Acheans back and Nestor is caught in the fray at the front with one of his horses down. Diomedes notices this and calls to Ulysses to come back and help, but Ulysses either out of fear or for whatever reason does not come to his aid and Diomedes ends up being the only one. Whereas in this same battle, two of Hectors charioteers get killed while the Acheans are trying to kill Hector, however every time one of them die, Hector calls for help and immediately someone gets up there and volunteers knowing that that position was especially dangerous. This loyalty that Hector's men display comes only because of the way he leads his men, and so as we read we should take note of his style of leadership and try to emulate it in ourselves.
To Megan
ReplyDeleteHey I really liked your last post, I was actually thinking about that myself and posted something along those lines in last weeks blog, but I think you explained it better. Keep it up.
Okay more notes on the leaders in the Iliad
ReplyDeleteAgamemnon displays great leadership qualities, quite similar to Hector. He compliments sincerely and always encourages others by recognizing what they do well. However, the difference between himself and Hector is that he himself is immoral and not a man I would associate with and take pride in outside of battles and war.
Diomed is great because he is fearless, or in other words extremely brave. He leads by example and loves his men, as shown when he sleeps in his armor, on the ground, with them. I also thought the council he gives to the watchmen was valuable, he said “Watch on, my children, and let not sleep get hold upon you, lest our enemies triumph over us.” And that’s important to remember in all circumstances, that we should never let our watch or guard against evil wane; we should not take off our “armor” and let evil get hold and triumph over us. And we shortly see thereafter that the allies of the Trojans who did not set watch were killed in their sleep.
Okay, I hope you aren't getting tired of me, and all these things are kinda random, but I really like what I was able to pull out here. Take a look at the size of this nugget!
ReplyDeleteUlysses is both humble and wise. I love what he says after Diomed complements him for being the choicest among the other great men to go into the Trojan camp, he says, “Son of Tydeus, say neither good or ill about me, for you are among Agrives who know me well...” By this we see that he takes no vanity or pride in the fact that others think well of him, and also that his honor is not supported by what others say of him, but by what he does, his actions. In turn I recognize him as a great man. This lesson is one Achilles should have learned.
Now about Achilles...I always used to think he was a hero, but now I realize that he most definitely was not. We all know the story; he quarreled with Agamemnon, and as Jeremy pointed out he should have been the bigger man from the beginning and just forgotten about it, however he doesn’t and invents excuses for his being mad and not helping when in the end it comes down to the fact that his pride won’t let him get over it and he throws a fit. In doing so, he destroys the person he was thought to be. A hero does not do what he did. He could have easily saved face and just taken it and came out a better man, however we see that his personal development is far outweighed by his amazing martial abilities. Perhaps it was even neglected because he was able to get along so well and go so far by just being an incredible warrior. He reminds me of Michael Phelps and his multiple mess ups from drinking and driving to smoking pot. Tiger Woods is another example. In these and countless other examples we see that just because one can do great (physical) things does not necessarily mean they themselves are great. One would think that great deeds follow from being a great person, however we see that sometimes this is not the case. That really reinforced to me how important and valuable it is to develop a good character and have good morals, because otherwise we may just end up like Achilles, Michael or Tiger, being able to do great things but failing as person, failing yourself.
Okay I am so sorry this must seem monotonous but its late and I missed some key points and can't get to sleep without adding them to finish the thought on the post just above.
ReplyDeleteSo anyways Achilles ruins himself out of stubborn pride, and Phoenix sees this and says to him, "Battle with your pride and beat it"! And thats just great. Ultimately, and in conclusion, Achilles is as one with great talent, but no character, utterly lacking in that which makes men most esteemed.
And that is it for tonight.lol
World Literature
ReplyDeleteI thought this was kind funny.
"Jove was furious when he awoke, and began hurling the gods about all over the house."
I like his anger management. ;)
This comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI was reading on page 226-27. Its describing Vulcan, a god who works metals. At the very bottom of the page he is building a new shield for Achilles and it goes on and on about what he paints on this shield. I could not help thinking that the shield is a distinguishing feature of his stature and heroism. From it his accomplishments are displayed. He totes the magnificent shield with pride. I was wondering what its equal would be in todays society... a car?...a professional title?
ReplyDeleteHey, Dr. groft, have u sent the funeral oration? cause that's due today right?
ReplyDeleteGreenman,
ReplyDeleteDiagramming a document or paper is simply creating a picture or a set of modules that explains the document in one page (sometimes two). It is a way to visually show the succession of ideas and the culminating thesis or theme or key point, etc...
Dr. Groft
[posting this to blog]
Seriously you guys... Great comments. David, way to go. All of you. Keep it up. As for the Funeral Oration, I'll give that to you in class.
ReplyDeleteDr. Groft
Hey, just wondering if the people listening to the recordings will be graded like the others in the live class?
ReplyDeleteHere's another thought.
ReplyDeleteThe Proper Reasons
As I’ve studied this book, I’ve concluded that Homer deliberately wrote and portrayed the huge contrast between characters and happenings so we could learn from them. We can draw things from the watchmen story, the different leaderships that result in loyalty and fear, the humility and pride and other examples. Here is one more that he illustrates.
When Hector calls on his men for a volunteer to go and spy on the Acheans, a very dangerous task, he says that whomever will do so will naturally reap much honor but also will be given riches (and I think a pair of extremely valuable chariot horses). Unfortunately this reward motivated Dolon to do as Hector wished for the wrong reason. Dolon goes, but only for the reward promised and not in obedience out of love or service to please Hector. As it plays out we see that Dolon is then snared and killed after proving himself a fool by truthfully telling his captors the layout of the Trojan’s camp because he lacked courage and determination and was afeared for his life. As we see, without the proper purpose or frame of mind, when he is put to the test he utterly fails. He lacked the proper reason for what he was doing, and is killed in dishonor and as a traitor.
Just like him, we need to do things for the right reasons. This principle is so important. If we do things with selfish desires, no matter how good it is, in the end it is done in vain. Yes, it may help others, but we ourselves miss the ultimate purpose.
When we obey God, we do it for the most part because it makes us happy, however we should always (and especially in those cases where we don’t see or understand why) obey God because we love him and want to please him. Like wise this principle applies as we serve others. When we do so, we must do it because we want to and because we love those we serve. All we gain when we serve grudgingly is the secondary blessing that we are at least doing what we’re supposed to and striving to make a good habit, when the greatest blessing of service is obviously missed. This also must be remembered when we reprimand or punish others (such as younger siblings), it should be done because we love them and are trying to teach them and help them be better. It mustn’t be done to give them what they deserve, make them look or feel bad or for any other reason. If we do not correct them in love, we cannot effectively correct them and most often end up dealing evil. I’m sure you could come up with many more examples of this, but in conclusion we should always remember to follow Christ’s teaching to Love One Another. Only then can we be sure that our intentions are good and that we are doing what we do for the right reason, learning what we should learn, and becoming who we should become.
homer likes to meddle with my mind, in the beginning of the book Agamemnon was acting like an idiot and then took Achilles lady, Achilles then prayed to his mother and she got Zeus to make the Trojans start winning I agreed with Achilles at that point and was like, "HA! take THAT Agamemnon!" but then it leaves Achilles for half the book and starts talking about the Greeks and Trojans it goes back and forth for a while then almost all of the Greek heroes get wounded; Diomed, Agamemnon, Nestor and all the others, finally the only ones left are the ajaxes and they hold the Trojans at the wall for a while but then Jove makes the Trojan beat through the defenses and by this time I am thinking "what? the Trojans can't win!!!!" but then I remember Achilles, and think "I don't care about that spoiled brat!" and want the Greeks to win! then Patroclus goes out to fight (Achilles right hand man and best friend) goes out and even though Jove had said "now I will have him beat back the Trojans and then hector will kill him" I still cheered Patroclus on and when he died and the huge fight over his body transpired I thought "ahh! He was not supposed to die!" and then Achilles hears about the news and I though ha, serves him right but then again he did just lose his best friend and then his mom goes off to get him armor while the Trojans are nearly at the ships and you can sense that the final battle is about to begin...
ReplyDeleteYou guys are all amazing. And such an inspiration! Haha :)
ReplyDeleteWell, because I've been sick for the last couple of days...almost a week...I'm behind in school. And it's lame. But I'll survive.
I just wanted to let ya'll know what's going on in my life! And let you guys know how amazing you all are! Literally, reading these comments made my day. You guys are bodacious.
If I'm not in class, it's because I'm not caught up yet...or I've been abducted by little blue men in red jumpsuits. I'll watch the recordings.
Love you all!
~Jordan S.
Here are the names of the 8 assignments for Social Leadership. I'll explain each one in class.
ReplyDeleteSocial Leadership Assignments
Assignment #1 Self-Assessment and Vision
Assignment #2 Community Connection and Running Partners
Assignment #3 Personality Test and Discussion
Assignment #4 Proposal for Project
Assignment #5 Lifetime Intensions
Assignment #6 Accepting Responsibility
Assignment #7 Addictive Habits
Assignment #8 Social Leadership Project
Today I was reading out of Will Durant's heroes of history, and in chapter 7 about the golden age of greece, i got the impression that the golden age of greece wasn't that golden. There was hardly any morals. And wars during a golden age doesn't make it sound very golden. To me a golden age wouldn't have wars, and it would have a fairly moral people.
ReplyDeleteThe greek golden age may have been a golden age for somethings like science and the arts, but I do not think that it was a complete golden age.
I was also surprised how many of the great men in Greek history, and the greeks as a whole, were homosexual. That definitly does not make it a complete golden age in my eyes.
General comments
ReplyDeleteI want to sum up what seems to be a general opinion of characters:
Hector, THE MAN!!: Absolutely Friggin Awsome. He is a strong person morally, physically, and spiritually. He also is very wise and compassionate.
Agamemnon: Kind of iffy. There are times where we really like him, and there are times where we want to smack him and tell him to grow up.
Achilles: Dido with Agamemnon
Odysseus(Ulysses): Also kind of iffy. He doesn't show up much in the Illiad, so i don't know if we get a really good idea of his character. A much better study is the Odessy (but its all about him so it would be).
Paris(Alexandrus): In G-rated language, he is a shallow, cowardly, womanizing, greedy, self- centered, immature....good for nothing, unintelligent, silly, silly man:)
Diomed: I think we'll keep him ;)
Ajaxes: Pretty cool as well
I can't think of any others at the moment.
A suggestion to David: take these awsome comments and put them in a book. Seriously.
As I am going through the children's Odessy, I am realizing waht kind of amazing person Odysseus is. I mean, really. After TWENTY YEARS, he still tries to get home and doesn't give up but perseveres. That is pretty amazing that he has that much determination, iron will, and fortitude to keep moving towards Ithaca, despite losing all his men and all the tragedies he endures, and to not give up!
And don't stop writing, David. Everyone else, I VANT TO HEAR SOME MORE COMMENTS!!
Thank you.
:)
Trevor,
ReplyDeleteYou need to "Diagram" either my paper about the birth of Western Civ, or a chapter even a key part of the Durant reading. Diagramming just means taking a paper, or essay, or chapter or excerpt and drawing the ideas out in module form kinda like we did in class: what leads to what, which leads to what, which is the foundation of what... etc... The main ideas of the essay or chapter ought to be understandable through this module. This is only our first attempt, so don't stress too much. Just try to do something like I did and I'll teach you more about it later.
Dr. Groft
[Posting this response to Blog]
Williamsburg Students and Parents,
ReplyDeletePlease read through the comments on this week's thread. THIS is what I'm talking about! This builds thinking skills, writing skills, communication skills, and it builds community and an inquisitive environment of learning. EVERYONE can participate. Your insights can be short or long, they can follow perfect grammatical rules or they can be written in an informal voice. But anyone who shares his/her epiphanies and ideas and connections in our community blog on a regular (daily, every other day) basis WILL have a better educational experience, and WILL begin to develop into better oral communicators and writers.
Keep it up for those who are already engaged.
Get going you young geniuses for those of you who have heretofore held back!
Megan, I totally agree with your comment!
ReplyDeleteWow! I know this has already been said, but this is awesome! I love how we can continue the discussions, ideas, and epiphanies with each other even after class is over.
ReplyDeleteDavid, that's so cool you have so many ideas and thoughts. I am loving them!
And Jeremy, That would be awesome if you could be live with us.
I wish I was live in the World Lit with the rest of you guys to participate more better and easier.
I agree with Tyler. I was completely revolted at all the homosexuality. And not only that, but also that there were prostitutes everywhere.
"Luxury grew and morals declined. Prostitutes were plentiful, and their patrons suffered hardly any reproof from public opinion."
I didn't get why it was called The Golden Age since it was so immoral.
Later at the mention of Euripides' play, I thought it was odd that they threw Hector's son over the wall instead of another form of murder and then go to bring his body back for burial. Why that much trouble? Dramatic effect?
Fear and power are real motivators. Power even causes fear sometimes. I just thought that was an interesting bit.
I don't get Philip, people liked him?
"...he broke a promise with a light heart but was always ready to make another; he recognized no no morals for governments, and looked upon bribes and lies as humane substitutes for slaughter."
Um....?
"He began by seizing cities... and answered Athenian protests with compliments on Athenian literature and art."
He flattered to get people to like him.
Now Plato.... A lot got marked and circled on his section. His obsession with Utopias were so twisted. The first paragraph on page 103 is really marked in my copy. Do you know how many commanding words are in that paragraph alone? "Shall, will, is to, should, are to be..."
That's only a small bit of it. Plato's ideas for Utopias are Nazism. (Well maybe not at the time since there were no Nazi's technically yet...) But we all know how Hitler's plans worked out. Yeah, they were real paradise.
But this ideal has absolutely no freedom of choice and no happiness involved. It felt like all you would be allowed to do is breathe, and even that feels limited.
The whole section on Plato just felt like it was only on his sick obsession.
Aristotle felt pretty quiet for me. nothing leaped out. There was one spot that really hit me though.
"All men are created unequal..."
WHAT?! Men are created equal! Our actions change our equality.
Anyway, I'll finish now. I really can't wait for the colloquium tomorrow though :)
Crystal
ReplyDeleteEven though Philip had a bad personality, you would have to admit that he had some really good leadership traits. Napolean had really good leadership traits, but over all he was not a good man. Same with Philip. He just was not a good man. I bet if he grew up in a more moral society, he would of been a very good leader in helping the world become a more better place, but alas, that did not happen. What do you think could of happened if he was a good moral leader?
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ReplyDeleteI don't really have very much time to write, so here is a short one.
ReplyDeleteThe three lessons that I learned this week...
1. Diligence is key to succeeding at whatever you do
2. Using the process of tempering metal is truly the best metaphor when it comes to describing what life is like :)
3. I was somehow able to find the time, even on my busiest day when I literally have no free time, whenever someone really needed me...it was amazing and humbling. I now know where my priorities to be. :)-Layne Wixom, Social Leadership
So here’s a question I’ve been pondering about the Iliad: Why is it that the soldiers in the army rely so heavily on a few numbered men established as leaders? If Diomedes or Agamemnon are injured, their soldiers fall back, if they fight on, the soldiers fight on? What tendency is it that makes men do this?
ReplyDeleteI also loved this quote:
“Antilochus, you are young, but Jove and Neptune have loved you well and have made you an excellent horseman. I need not therefore say much by way of instruction. You are skillful at wheeling your horses round the post, but the horses themselves are very slow, and it is this that will, I fear, mar your chances. The other drivers know less than you do, but their horses are fleeter.”
It is a fact that the youthful are strong, faster, and more nimble than the old. And yet the old often have more experience and are far wiser. I read this quote, and the thought came to my mind, “the problem here is that Antilochus has the skill and the wisdom, but not the power, wheres the others have the power, but not the skill and wisdom” I think the same is often true of people in the world today. But what if we joined the two together? What if the youth went to their elders in a desire to learn? And what if, in return for their learning they served their elders for their physical needs etc? I think the moral of the story is that as one, we have great strengths. But we also have great weaknesses. But when we work together those weaknesses are countered by other people’s strengths and great progress can be made in the world.
~Andrew Smith
wow Andrew I really like that I will try to go to and trust my elders more!
ReplyDeleteI found another quote that I really like from the Iliad "be both a speaker of works and a doer of deeds." I like that it is something I can definitely work at. I often find myself giving advice but then going and doing something else, mostly to siblings. This is a quote by Churton Collins"To profit from good advice requires more wisdom than to give it". I agree!!
ReplyDeleteWorld lit. The Iliad,
ReplyDeleteHey Everyone! *WOW*! your guys are AMAZING! I can't believe how many comments there are. I wonder if moving to moodle instead of this will slow down our discussions, I hope not! :D
I have a question!?
Agamemnon vs. Achilles
Who was right, who was wrong.
Who had pride, and who was strong?
As I said in class, Greeks were all about HONOR. Warriors would sack great cities and bring back the spoils for HONOR. Warriors would, after killing another, risk his life simply to tear off the dead man's armor for himself and his HONOR
Achilles had been ridiculed in public by the Great Agamemnon, he had had his wife of the fair cheeks Brisies taken from him, he had been reduced from the top, to the epitome of despair. He had lost his honor, his reason to live, HIS LIFE! The only thing he had to hold on to was his promise that he wouldn't fight in the war any longer, breaking that promise would forfeit that last strand of honor left in him. He HAD to hold on to this promise and prove strong and firm in his words. When Agamemnon came to Achilles to apologize,offering back what had been taken away from him to come and fight, he was asking Achilles to let go, to relinquish that last bit of hope, honor, and virtue in keeping his word. How could Achilles go back on his word?
On the other hand, Agamemnon had recognized his mistake. He had been humbled by the death of his people that he cared for. People that Achilles accused Agamemnon for never loving. Agamemnon came to Achilles with a humble heart, hoping that the stubborn Achilles would realize Agamemnon's sincerity. Through Achilles's pride Agamemnon was not successful.
Once again. Who was right, who was wrong
Who had pride, and who was strong?
hmmmmmmmmm..... I think the answer to that question is that neither wer right or wrong. In a book I read (called WWII and How It Affects You Today), the author stated that in old world wars, or any wars for that matter, there are rarely "good guys" or "bad guys". Winners write history. PLEASE, this is my opinion, i'm not trying to offend anyone or say the military is bad. I have the highest respect for the armed forces.
ReplyDeleteDunno if that helps.
And everyone, THANK YOU for writing. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside ;)
Oh, would everyone mind putting down the titles of the books you reference? i am an AVID reader and would appreciate some new material (i think avid might not be the correct word, though. Maybe sick addiction?.....)
Yeah Tyler, I think if anyone lives in a more moral society they would be better. But he didn't. I think it was that (and I only know of him through this small page and a half of information so I will have to study him a little more,) he never seemed to WANT to change. He enjoyed war, drinking and was unfaithful. He had no problem with breaking his word. He did also have somewhat of a decent education. It didn't seem like he searched for more knowledge, instead he was happy continuing to conquer and fight. I mean,
ReplyDelete"For the sake of power and dominion he had an eye struck out, a shoulder broken an arm and a leg paralyzed"
Does that not sound a little sick to you? He was power hungry and cared for nothing less really.
I will definitely have to study him a bit more though. One page is not enough to get all the info on someone.
I think the same goes for Alexander, He could have been a good leader, had he been placed in a more moral society. He may have had generosity and affection, dreams, hopes and gallantry; but his immorality, pride and arrogance brought him down. Sadly, they were both placed in an immoral society though and didn't change.
Crystal and Tyler, Hey are you saying that my immorality, pride and arrogance brought me down?!? :) haha just kidding, and I think you have a great point there. I have a question for you guys. I'd say the world we live in today is pretty immoral, at least from a media standpoint. Do you think it's possible to become a leader in an immoral world, but still be moral? Will people follow you?...or not follow you becuase you don't conform to the world's standards?
ReplyDeleteAnd by the way everyone, last time I was on here a couple days ago there were 4ish comments...AND NOW THERE'S AT LEAST A BILLION!!! :) so everyone's awesome. The end.
nice conclusion, alexander. just out of curiosity, what were you doing awake at 5:51 am?! i like to read the times that everyone posted their comments to determine who is possibly crazy(i count myself as one :)but i dont know if that's my or your time, so let me know so that i can determine your sanity.
ReplyDeleteDr groft, i accidentally erased my file for the diagram that you sent( the history blurb). Could you send it to me?
I have nothing interesting to say right now. Mebe later.....
haha just kidding
ReplyDeleteI also lost my 5000 to 400 file, dr groft. could you send that too?
and,(last time), to let everyone know what is going on a little bit in my life; my birthday is on sunday,(although i think ive already said that...) and i cant wait for the weekend so i can SLEEP :) i am also clogging,(kind of like tap) which i love but havent done in FOREVER, so trying to keep up with the pro class im in is very hard. but i will not give up, because i want to dance!
ReplyDeleteWoot woot ! Megan!
ReplyDeleteHahaha! Alexander, I actually thought of you when I typed that... thought it was funny.
ReplyDeleteUm, those are good questions. I think It is most definitely possible to be a great and moral leader in an immoral world. Getting people to follow you I guess would depend on how immoral things are, but mainly your approach to leadership. How do you approach them to teach them?
lol! Megan! Happy birthday Sunday :D
I was up at 5:30 this morning myself but I had no time to get online or I would have... :)
World Lit. comments:
ReplyDeleteOne of the many things I noticed in the Iliad is that the word wrath is a common theme. In fact the "wrath of Achilles" is the opening line of The Iliad and it ends with his (Achilles) wrath for/over the death of his dear friend and comrade, Patroclus. Achilles wrath, pride, and thirst for revenge devours his character and deems him an non-compassionate and unfeeling monster. After Patroclus' death all that Achilles wishes for is revenge on Hector. And, when Achilles finally succeeds in killing/destroying Hector his revenge for Patroclus is still not satisfied. He foully defiles and does and says all manner of unbelievable things. Things a said HERO would refrain from. Achilles believes he can find peace and pleasure in revenge but alas, the thing itself is pain, not pleasure.
Revenge is sweet, sweeter than life itself-so say fools and so says Achilles.
Alexander I was thinking about your last comment and I think you can be a leader in an immoral world because there are always those who will support you for your morality. It would be hard to get very far in say politics or something like that because well the moral are always out numbered it seems. But you can get some where and you can be an influence for good and help people to want to be better.
ReplyDeleteWorld Lit. comments:
ReplyDeleteHector is amazing! A truly courageous and wise character. A great leader and friend. I love his words to his wife in book 6 "My own wife, do not take these things too bitterly to heart. No one can hurry me down to Hades before my time, but if a man's hour is come, be he brave or be he coward, there is no escape for him when he has once been born." and to tie that with his dieing words, "But let me not die without a huge effort, nor let me dishonorably die, but in the brave doing of some great deed let me go, that men yet to be may hear of what happened." I think all of us have the desire to make a difference in life. To become, to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, etc. I would say Hector accomplished his dieing words desire to, “not die without a huge effort, nor dishonorably die, but in the brave doing of some great deed let me go.” Hector was a true enricher, protector, example, and guide to the city of Troy.
World Lit. comments:
ReplyDeleteHomer is an amazing author and poet. As Aristotle said he was the only poet who had found out "living words." An arrow is "impatient" to be on the wing, a weapon "thirsts" to drink the blood of the enemy, "the spear flew" and was not unsuccessful, and the like.
I was not ready for class to end I think we could descuse all day long no problem! I am excited to read Odyssey I think it will be interesting! I just wanted to say that I also think this class has some major futuer leaders in it, just thought I would say.
ReplyDeleteHey I thought the outlining class was pretty dang awesome, I used to not like outlining but now I feel as if I have the confidence to do it, and that I'm better at it thanks to the class, I even use an outlining format when taking notes sometimes and it works GREAT!
ReplyDeleteAlso since the class, in Heroes of History I have tried writing 5 or 6 key words of the paragraph beside it in the margin, and doing so not only helps me read the paragraph and the book better (because I have the mindset of "I need to find 5 key words to write down") and understand it more, but later if I want to recall what I was reading about I have only to look and the words I wrote and I remember everything about the paragraph in under 10 sec.!
I also did that for an entire chapter instead of doing each and every paragraph, it doesn't get as detailed but it still works if you're trying to read quickly because class is in 15 minutes.
Finding key words for every paragraph takes a little more time, but it's definitely worth it!
(See also Dr. Groft's comment on September 21, 2010 11:16 AM)
Andrew Blake (World History)
Quotes from Heroes of History (Andrew Blake):
ReplyDeletepg. 86 "Normally the philosophy of one age is the literature of the next: the ideas and issues that in one generation are fought out on the field of speculation or research provide in the succeeding generation the background of drama, fiction, and poetry."
-Will Durant
pg. "Until philosophers are kings, or the kings and princes of this world have the spirit and power of philosophy,... cities will never cease from ill, nor the human race."
-Plato
I just think those are true, and cool.
I like what Andrew said! The the key word outline really seems to help me!
ReplyDeleteGreetings fellow bloggians.
ReplyDeleteThanks to Andrew for his studying tip. Much Appreciated!
Class was pretty good today. I wish we would have been able to go more in depth with the Odessy. For me, there is so much i can learn from it. I want to get started!
(I appreciate the wooting:)
Does anyone have any other thoughts on the self assesment? what are some of the benefits of writing everything out/dr grofts meathod of going about this?
Another comment on hector: Like what sierra said, hector is very courageous. but i want to touch on his relationship with his wife again. he is so tender and sweet with her, and he loves her so much, i get warm and fuzzy every time i think about it. wouldn't it be great if all guys were like that? respectful and sweet? i say this because i've know some real jerks, and it always hart when they weren't kind. i've also known guys who treated me like a princess, and the biggest thing they did for me? make me feel safe and protected.
so someday i want to marry a guy like hector. and don't anyone settle fo ranything less!
I'm Hilton Shumway, and I'm in Social Leadership.
ReplyDeleteSo Wednesday night I was reading Chapter VII of Locke's Second Treatise, in which he describes political society. He begins by explaining the first relationship of society, that of husband and wife. He then expands that to parent and child, as well as master and servant and captor and slave.
I realized how fundamental the family is to society. I'd been told that, and I believed on faith, but now I see how that is the first unit.
@Alexander: 'Tis very possible to be an moral leader in an immoral world. However, it might be harder, not only because of bad influences, but also because an immoral people can't accomplish a whole lot.
ReplyDeleteJeremy, World Literature,
ReplyDeleteIliad book seven, roughly four fifths of the way through (I have a different publication from the rest of you, same translation different publication, or I would give you a page number). I thought this was just gut wrenching.
Setting:
This is right after Hector and Ajax fight. The armies have both retreated from the field back into their respective camps (or city). Everybody is tired and kind of sad because so many friends and comrades, on both sides, have died today. The Acheans feast and then have a war council to decide what their next course of action will be. They decide to call a cease fire for the purpose of gathering and giving a proper funeral to their dead comrades, after which they will build fortifications around their camp.
Interestingly the Trojans go directly into a council before they eat. I thought this was smart, get the important things done first, except that on closer inspection the Trojan council was "angry and full of discord" whereas the Achean council was peaceful. The battle had gone rather badly for the Trojans, so they had an added element of stress, but it is still interesting to note that the Acheans took the time to relax and calm themselves after the battle, while the Trojans did not. Anyway, at the Trojan council everybody is tense and "full of discord". This is the mood when "wise Antenor spoke". He suggests they give Helen, and all the treasure Paris plundered when he took her, back to the Acheans. Paris says: "Your words are not to my liking... I will not give up the woman; but the wealth... I will restore, and will add yet further of my own." Priam then tells everyone to go home and eat, in the morning Idaeus will go tell the Acheans and ask for a cease fire so they can care for the dead, after which they can continue fighting.
This is where I felt a wrench in the gut before I was just mad at Paris for refusing to give up Helen, but here... Well, Idaeus goes, and gives the message to the Acheans: Paris is willing to give the treasure back plus some, "but he will not give up the wedded wife of Menelaus, though the Trojans would have him do so."
There it is. Any decent leader would see that this is a golden opportunity. The Trojans don't exactly ask for peace, but offering to give back the treasure that started the war is as close to an invitation for peace talks as I can imagine. Idaeus even hints (perhaps unintentionally) that if they play it right, the Trojans will demand Paris give back Helen! Here the Acheans have been camped in siege, away from hearth home and wife, for NINE YEARS. They just fought a battle in which they lost many comrades and they are facing another battle with similar death’s tomorrow, and the next day, and the next day. All it takes is one strong leader, one influential king, standing and making a case for peace.
There is a moment of silence as the Acheans decide how to react, will they accept peace? Are they big enough to drop their dreams of seeing Troy in ruins and accept the things they came to reclaim? At this pivotal moment Diomed speaks: "Let there be no taking, neither treasure nor yet Helen, for even a child may see that the doom of the Trojans is at hand."
As simply as that the turning point has passed. The warriors applaud, and Agamemnon confirms the decision (funny how he only speaks after the will of the crowd is known following rather than leading). And yet, I cannot help but wonder, how many of these cheering men will never make it home? How many will die before Troy is razed, and even if they are among the living, how many friends will they have lost?
The next day the armies meet but there is no fighting, they agreed to allow each other the opportunity of honoring their dead. Both Trojan and Achean feel the terrible loss of their brothers in arms, but still they continue to their war.
Quotes from Heros of History by Durant
ReplyDeleteThere were a lot of quotes that I loved from the book, but here a couple of my favorites:
Pg. 101 "In history, as in newspapers, only the name and dates change; the events are always the same." This one just kinda stuck out to me, because all the time I hear about how history repeats its self, and how we need to study history to understand what is going to happen next, and there are instances where I can see parallels between now and the past.
Pg. 105 "The goal of conduct is happiness, but the secret of happiness is virtue, and the best virtue is intelligence." I totally agree with that. We strive to be happy, but we can't truly be happy if we don't have any education or virtue.
Kelsea McBrayer (World History)
Andrew Smith said...
ReplyDeleteSo here’s a question I’ve been pondering about the Iliad: Why is it that the soldiers in the army rely so heavily on a few numbered men established as leaders? If Diomedes or Agamemnon are injured, their soldiers fall back, if they fight on, the soldiers fight on? What tendency is it that makes men do this?
Sources of Courage
(David Says in answer) I think it is partly because when in dire straights the leaders are more proactive and the men find cause to fight harder than they thought they could otherwise. But also a good leader heading the fight gives men confidence. The direction and wisdom of the leader helps the men to know that their efforts and risks are heading them in the right direction and not being done in vain. And we see that when these leaders are absent, that confidence is also absent, and the men waver, fight poorly and even retreat or surrender.
An example of this in the book is when Agamemnon gets wounded and ends up leaving the fight, whereupon Hector encourages his men by saying, “...be men, my friends and acquit yourselves in battle bravely; their best man has left them...” On certain occasions while playing church basketball I’ve noticed this same tendancy. When our star player and leader isn’t one of the guys out on the court I can sense more hesitancy in what I’m doing because I question wether I’m making the right moves or using the right plays and what not; whereas when he’s out there he takes command of the situation and I feel completely confident that I‘m doing what needs to be done. So in the end, I’d say that many a time we probably do know what to do, we just lack the courage and support to act. A good leader brings this courage to the surface, but I think that if we dig deep enough, we all can find the courage within ourselves to act and do great things.
We can also draw that leaders and great people, at times, need help too. Of course they’re there to lead but we should not expect them to be free problems and hardships like the rest of us. When Ulysses is being overwhelmed by the Trojans after Diomed is wounded, and the tide turns against Ajax who has come to his aid, we see that these great men need help. The one man to notice this was Eurypylus, and he springs to his defense. By this I think that Homer is showing us that we should be more aware of others needs, and also that just because we look up to someone and draw strength from them doesn’t mean they are living dandily and need no support or can’t possibly benefit from what we have to offer. I think in our everyday lives we can aid and assist them by offering kind or cherry words, thanking them for their example or service, help them out, or just being friendly; because like all people, they aren’t perfect and need help and support too.
World Lit: What’s Most Important-Sparked from Layne (Thanks)
ReplyDeleteUpon his return from inquiring about the wounded Machaon, Patroclus encountered Eurypylus limping along from an arrow wound in his thigh. Eurypylus asks for assistance in removing the arrow head and dressing the wound, and Patroclus’ reply reminded me of what Layne posted about finding time to help others even when you are way too busy. He replied "Hero Eurypylus," replied the brave son of Menoetius, "how may these things be? What can I do? I am on my way to bear a message to noble Achilles from Nestor of Gerene, bulwark of the Achaeans, but even so I will not be unmindful to your distress." And although I admit this isn’t an excellent example of this, (just because Patroclus might have done so out of pity), it just sparked my memory about what Layne said. As recent experience has taught me, we do need to sometimes sacrifice time and realize that although we are busy and have many priorities in our lives, helping others is by far more important than attending to those things, (even school sometimes). For isn’t school a waste if we do not apply our learning and change ourselves by reflecting it in our actions? I believe that in most cases, it is important to put our busy lives on hold when someone asks for help. By doing so we show those we help that they are more important to us than going shopping, having fun, or even getting an assignment done. We also come to realize by experience what is most important in life. To Love One Another.
Jeremy:
ReplyDeletedoes it all seem kind of pointless after that? the whole war seemed pointless,honestly, 'cause i dont see why people wont just talk about things insteadof killing eachother. another time i think that might have been a good opportunity to bargain would have been when priam came to ransom hectors body. priam was in the camp and he didn't try and strike a deal. wasn't anyone tired of all the fighting? i only read about three days worth or so of fighting and i was tired of it!
I love the first quote, Kelsea. that is a great way to say that history repeats itself.
Does anyone need a partner? I didn't get the chance to ask on friday.
I thought that it was interesting that in the middle of the war the Greeks took a break mourned the death of Achilles friend and then started partying
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to say that the quote
ReplyDeleteWhen its dark enough, you can see the stars" is an amazing quote
Nate, I was actually going to comment on the same thing you said.
ReplyDeleteI thought it was odd how everything felt like it paused for Achilles' rage over Patroclus' death. It like everything was forgotten to allow Achilles to go all out in his rage. And then after he has taken care of Patroclus, he gets some games going... "OK, I've thrown my fit, everything is taken care of. ...Lets play some games!" Didn't make sense. Maybe I just don't quite understand their culture.
Can't wait to go into the Odyssey in depth!
ReplyDeleteSometimes, in the book however, it seems to get a little depressing as Odysseus goes though what seems to be a never ending string of misfortunes.
OK, my name is Aurora Fackrell, and I'm in the Social Leadership Class. :)
ReplyDeleteFor my class i read Three Cups of Tea, and I wanted to say how amazing it is that one person, who seems totally average, can completely change so many peoples lives. In the beginning, when he starts building his first school, there are so many things that get in the way, and he spends over 3 years on it, but after that he starts cranking out schools like nobody's business!
He had such a strong mission and he really excelled and really changed the lives of hundreds of people. It is so amazing to me, and it makes me want to be a better person. :)
I'm Gabe Walker from Social Leadership and I guess all i have to say is that the book three cups of tea realy opened my eyes to the poverty and culture of the middle east and how the really only cause for war is lack of education. This why in a sense all humans seek knowledge, in that without it we are nothing
ReplyDeletetesting....
ReplyDeleteMy name is michael I'm in the world history class.Well I have been l have been lost and confused and overwhelmed by this class. Now I have noticed that this class is all about reading telling people what I read and learned.200 years after the new world was founded called the united states of america they needed to restore their beliefs and laws and order.their are two types of order the order of the soul and the order of society.Now here is example when their is no order the fall of rome. Now rome was a very large empire but the emperor had a big problem a whole bunch of people in other words called the wandering tribes form other parts of the world wanted to come to rome and do every thing that rome people do but the emperor would not let them so they became barbarions called celts and in these celts were multiple tribes call attila and the huns,goths,visigoths and ostrogoths.Were attacking the rome borders.So the emperor sent his armies to protect the border but their werent enough soldiers to protect the borders. Now if that wasn't the problem their was also a great food shortage in some places and their was also a terrible sickness called the plague.Many of the emperors that inherited the job of ruling rome were not very good at it.One of the emperors went mad and tried to make his horse a goverment offical.
ReplyDeleteFinally an emperor called Diocletian came to throne he decided that rome is to big for ruler so he divided into to parts he kept west rome and east rome to person named Maximilian. Diocletian hoped that would be easier to protect rome now that is was smaller but he was wrong 200 years after Diocletians death western rome was conqured by the barbarions and they burned rome. Now point of order is that the emperor got swallowed up by pride and lost the things that money cant buy family, friends the spirit.